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Old 10-09-2018, 06:48 PM   #5451
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by Dubnjoy000 View Post
Finally got to listening to the podcasts - I know, I know, it took some time - and thoroughly enjoyed them, of course Also bought a tshirt (a small "thank you" for this elite thread) and also looking forward to purchasing/reading that book of yours DGAF (also love all that Ben Saxton does ). Peace
1. Thanks much for the support. That's that COMMUNAL life I'm so obsessed with...

2. I will take any feedback anyone has on the pods. I've basically taken a trial and error approach to them because that just feels right/I'm stupid, but I'm happy to fast track them to great shows if anyone has any insights. Podding is my new dream job, like poker was 15 years ago.

3. I'm just getting the online clothing store going. Again, any feedback much appreciated.

4. I agree Ben is a boss, and he has agreed to edit .
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Old 10-09-2018, 06:54 PM   #5452
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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hadn't been on the new site yet until I saw this - it looks great and the 73o shirt is awesome haha; buying one now. love the choice to pick from all the different colors; I'd recommend doing that for as many shirts as you can - people love to have the choice (at least I do).

I don't post much in here but thanks for the epic thread - helped me come a long way from when I started playing and knew nothing about being good for the game. best of luck to you.
The clothing site is currently down lol. I've put a million hours into it in the last week and GoDaddy (garbage af company) did something weird with my domain yesterday--they tell me it takes 2 days to fix . I've legit been a little depressed since it went down.

Anyways, thanks for the feedback! I will make color options a priority. I'm just getting started with it/it's another huge passion of mine.

Glad to hear this thread helped you be good for the game<-- that's what my clothing site is supposed to be all about too!
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Old 10-09-2018, 06:56 PM   #5453
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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google poker rags clothing.
indeed (maybe wait until tomorrow though cuz GoDaddy ruining my life atm)

thanks Surf Doc

thoughts on the shark attack in Encinitas the other day???
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:01 PM   #5454
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Yup, it was the 73o shirt.

Funny, I have not bought poker clothing since 6-8 years ago, back when I was still in the dawn of my professional years and wanted to live up to the pro image. Of course, maturing in the game (and in life) and this thread have both contributed to putting on decent shirts ; the only times I will put on a tshirt nowadays, is when looking potentially like a pro in the slightest (nobody picks up on it usually, given I am in my 40s, act fast etc.) will not affect the entertainment level of the rec players (like in highstakes tournaments, for instance).



Cool, I think that many of us follow this thread silently, yet have a big amount of gratitude for what DGAF has put out there. Buying a shirt is a small gesture, but does indirectly say "thank you", me thinks.


I think a shirt with 73 on the front of it sends the polar opposite message as "3-BET"... All my clothing is comfortable/high quality AF (so not cheap) with long sessions in mind, and none of it is intimidating/most of it encourages lightheartedness, fun, gambling, laughing, etc.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:03 PM   #5455
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Any advice on where to play/stay in vegas? Going next week for about 3 weeks and never been there. Looking at bravo it looks like only a couple casinos run anything bigger then 2/5nl.
Jockey Club

(HMU if you want the contact info of the lady I use to go through)
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:04 PM   #5456
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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for a 3 week trip I'd get an airbnb. staying in a casino hotel for 3 weeks sounds like a voluntary trip to the abyss even if you don't play table games.

Play at aria/wynn/bellagio depending on what you want to play and what's available. Aria will have 2/5/10 plo the most consistently, wynn has the deepest games, bellagio always has a 150 bb cap 5/10 and the most 10/20+ action.
+1

edit: jockey is different though. Kitchen and all that and no casino--but right between Bell and Aria
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:09 PM   #5457
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I feel this completely and it's why I very much shy away from getting too personal with poker pro's -- it's normally been some attempt at free coaching or something similar.

However, for the exact scenario he presented, you should have no problem doing that, and the reason is because you're going to be 100% upfront about your intentions. "Let's meet for lunch and I'd like to pick your brain and get some advice". Even though it's not "equivalent" exchange, he might like the idea of helping you out.

It's not scummy to ask people for help without presenting an immediate return of their EV (ofc you'd owe them a favor at some point IF the opportunity presented itself). What makes it scummy is when you mascaraed yourself as seeking friendship when you actually have ulterior motives.
Good post. So I'm not the only one with a million fake friends in my phone?

I hear you. Not scummy. For me though, I have to offer ~ equal return. Like if I send you a fantasy football trade offer I legit make sure it makes sense for you<-- why does no one else in the world do that lol?

OK, back to bed for me. Got whacked in bowling last night/this morning and am a bit hungover .

Cheers/c y'all in a week!
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:19 PM   #5458
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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indeed (maybe wait until tomorrow though cuz GoDaddy ruining my life atm)

thanks Surf Doc

thoughts on the shark attack in Encinitas the other day???
Yeah. Don't go diving or swimming so far from shore at times when they feed (dawn and dusk).

Also, I really give zero ****s since statistically the chance of getting killed in a car is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>shark.

Oh and it was head high and clean af this am. Combo swell ftw. Big crowd yet somehow they all just parted when I paddled and watched me. Well, all except for the SUP who tried to drop in and kill me (worse than sharks IMO) and despite me yelling "NO NO NO" from the peak as I stood up he still flung his 98756486 foot board over the lip.

Last edited by surf doc; 10-09-2018 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:23 PM   #5459
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Good post. So I'm not the only one with a million fake friends in my phone?

I hear you. Not scummy. For me though, I have to offer ~ equal return. Like if I send you a fantasy football trade offer I legit make sure it makes sense for you<-- why does no one else in the world do that lol?

OK, back to bed for me. Got whacked in bowling last night/this morning and am a bit hungover .

Cheers/c y'all in a week!

Nah, you are the only one, because I avoid giving them my number

Well, I think that's a different example because the trade is directly taking away some of their EV. While somebody's time has immense value, you're not asking for actual capital, and you're being straight forward about what you want. It may have very well have just been time he'd have spent watching TV instead, but he gets more fulfillment from aiding a young intelligent person to succeed. There's certainly merit for it being mutually beneficial.

In terms of trying to milk free coaching from a "friend", even if they enjoy talking about poker and get some sort of value from that, it's still never mutually beneficial because they could easily be doing the same thing with somebody who's actually paying them a properly hourly for it.
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Old 10-10-2018, 06:34 AM   #5460
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Hey DGAF & er'body else in here,

Really really good thread, just wanted to pay my compliments/ respects.

Don't have much to contribute other than this: I'm someone who has recently picked up a long lost dream of at the very least playing poker for a side income with a potential to transition to full time, maybe, someday IF I get up my mental game/ mindset (I believe this to be the most important aspect of the game) and maintain discipline etc.

I am quite far from that at the moment as my bankroll is literally $50 something dollars and I am playing NL2 online.

I wanted to say that you are an inspiration - from a both poker pro and writer/ blogger perspective but MOST OF ALL as a human being.

Just wanted to offer that for what it's worth.

Also I wanted to say I will support your projects financially any way I can when I manage to dig myself out of the hole a bit (just got a new job after being laid off in early September). Basically the life EV of this thread is just so mf positive that I really want to contribute somehow.

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Last edited by praFF; 10-10-2018 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 10-11-2018, 12:05 AM   #5461
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I have a friends host who has a room for me at the ellis island hotel. It seems nice, and relatively close to Bellagio and Wynn etc and will only cost me 2k for 3 weeks. Everywhere else seems to want more then 100 a day plus taxes and $500 resort fee. I hadn't planned on renting a car so I hadn't considered Airbnb. Also any input on touristy stuff would be nice as I'm going to try not degen and play every day, or maybe if I get smashed in the 20/40 game I frequently see on bravo.
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Old 10-11-2018, 02:55 AM   #5462
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I have a friends host who has a room for me at the ellis island hotel. It seems nice, and relatively close to Bellagio and Wynn etc and will only cost me 2k for 3 weeks. Everywhere else seems to want more then 100 a day plus taxes and $500 resort fee. I hadn't planned on renting a car so I hadn't considered Airbnb. Also any input on touristy stuff would be nice as I'm going to try not degen and play every day, or maybe if I get smashed in the 20/40 game I frequently see on bravo.
That's still a 20 minute walk. Unless you're hourly is super low, you're actually costing yourself money by not ubering from the hotel to the casino (plus walking is annoying AF).

I wouldn't rent a car, I'd just uber for the few weeks, factor that into your expenses.
[renting a car may be cheaper but you have to factor in consistently paying the parking costs and not being able to drive if you decide to drink]

Airbnb is certainly an option, and assuming you're going to uber either way as you should, factor in some % increase (30-40?) for going off strip and then compare that to the hotel. But 2k for 3 weeks isn't bad at all
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:34 PM   #5463
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
That's still a 20 minute walk. Unless you're hourly is super low, you're actually costing yourself money by not ubering from the hotel to the casino (plus walking is annoying AF).

I wouldn't rent a car, I'd just uber for the few weeks, factor that into your expenses.
[renting a car may be cheaper but you have to factor in consistently paying the parking costs and not being able to drive if you decide to drink]

Airbnb is certainly an option, and assuming you're going to uber either way as you should, factor in some % increase (30-40?) for going off strip and then compare that to the hotel. But 2k for 3 weeks isn't bad at all
I disagree on walking being annoying AF
I walk a lot in vegas (when it's not hot as **** out)
It's good to get some exercise after sitting on my ass all day playing poker and I feel a lot better when I do it. My only concern would be walking back there late at night for safety reasons.
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:21 AM   #5464
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Good post. So I'm not the only one with a million fake friends in my phone?

I hear you. Not scummy. For me though, I have to offer ~ equal return. Like if I send you a fantasy football trade offer I legit make sure it makes sense for you<-- why does no one else in the world do that lol?

OK, back to bed for me. Got whacked in bowling last night/this morning and am a bit hungover .

Cheers/c y'all in a week!
I think today's business/tech world is a land of abundance. It's culturally expected of people to give back to the community and help each other out. In a lot of places, including where I work, you're expected to be mentoring and contributing to open source and to the community. You're helping people to find exciting projects to work on, advance careers, get jobs, etc.

On the other hand, poker is rooted in scarcity. By it's very nature, poker is already a negative sum game as rake gets pulled out and people are battling for whatever money is on the table. Furthermore, whales and good games are scarce. The very act of helping someone else out ends up hurting yourself and, conversely, getting better yourself will be hurting someone else.

I get the sense that at the pro and semi-serious level, It is the very nature of the game that drives the anti-communal behavior. Players want to keep people as dumb as possible and drive away other pros and hustle and angle shoot. Haha, it's like there's a contradiction in being happy in people's success and playing correctly, but then also being like "**** poker" I can't make money anymore (which is a big reason to play poker).

It sounds like you're doing well and that your side projects are taking off .
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:09 AM   #5465
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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this is probably true for like 1/2 nl (simply bc you need lots of volume to move up) but not true at higher stakes.

why would i play during dirt hours like wed at 3pm not during a tournament series?

there's almost never going to be a higher stakes game running and if there is it's going to suck 99 % of the time.

I'll get probably 1400-1600 hours in this year, almost all at plo 2/5-10/25 and almost all of those hours will be in at least decent games. I play a ton during tournament series, weekends etc when the games are good. I'm not trying to put in hours for the sake of putting in hours. Punching a time clock doesn't get you anywhere in poker.

A few weeks ago i played 5 hours in 2 days bc the games sucked. Then i played 29 hours in the next 2 days because the games were amazing.
In the first 5 hours i doubt my ev was even 20 bucks an hour. In the last 29 it was easily at least 200 (these were exceptional games.) In one of the games I got the last seat when the game was new and nobody left the table for the first 7-8 hours.

I do like the grinders who think they can play on a set schedule. They'll sit in bad games all day long then leave at 1am or whatever because it's their bed time. Fine by me. Leave me the donks.
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:02 PM   #5466
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I'll get probably 1400-1600 hours in this year, almost all at plo 2/5-10/25 and almost all of those hours will be in at least decent games. I play a ton during tournament series, weekends etc when the games are good. I'm not trying to put in hours for the sake of putting in hours. Punching a time clock doesn't get you anywhere in poker.

A few weeks ago i played 5 hours in 2 days bc the games sucked. Then i played 29 hours in the next 2 days because the games were amazing.
In the first 5 hours i doubt my ev was even 20 bucks an hour. In the last 29 it was easily at least 200 (these were exceptional games.) In one of the games I got the last seat when the game was new and nobody left the table for the first 7-8 hours.
where are these games
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:47 PM   #5467
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I was too young to be in poker during the poker boom but I feel like the games, 2-5 and under are very very soft everywhere in the country.

Grant it, I don't play 5-10, but how can you expect these games to stay soft for an infinite amount of time? A whale can easily get his fix at 2-5 or below where the stack sizes can get 2k+. You can't expect losing regs to dump thousands per session and keep showing up consistently.

I guess this means the sky is falling if you are a 5-10 reg or above. But being able to make 8-10 BB an hour at 2-5 is not that bad of an income for playing a card game.

You are def lucky to have had access to 5-10 games against total noobs and clowns in the past. I never had access to these games but I would be pissed too if my cushy 150k a year job shrunk in half because the player pool got replaced by other pros.

Last edited by bodybuilder32; 10-15-2018 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 10-16-2018, 12:03 AM   #5468
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Overall, if you're a pro you should be very grateful. With all of the free strat advice everywhere and yet the fish STILL show up and play terrible...its mind boggling that people are that irresponsible with money.

I know that high stakes doesn't play this way but screw it then. Just move down and play at a level where the games will always be good.

If 2-5 seems too tough then you honestly may be playing too spew. There's a reason all the pros are nits. Its cus the fish are putting there money in bad and call too much and only get aggressive with the nuts. So the best exploit is to be a nut peddler. Its just how it goes...
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Old 10-16-2018, 12:37 AM   #5469
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I don't want it to seem like I'm arguing with DGAF as I truly appreciate this thread and insights from someone with more experience than I.

I guess I should be pissed that 100k is gonna be hard to make in the future. As a millennial, it pretty much is impossible to make that if you have an average IQ and don't work in tech or as a doctor.

I've been a pro in live poker since 2014, and honestly, I haven't seen a drop off in game quality too much. I'd say the biggest thing is fish may be buying in for less but even this is location dependent.

I think the games will be good for a long time at low stakes. This is where the $ is at.

The guys playing super high rollers and whatnot seem retarded to me since they can't hardly expect to be +EV long term. The only reason that they probably do it is because some whale will stake them to play and they get to play poker as a free roll. If these guys had to bootstrap themselves none of them would be putting up that kind of money.

Even DGAF is fortunate enough to have backers. If guys with an edge don't have the money to play high stakes on their dime, how can you expect the fish too?

Apologies for the rambling.....I'm hoping DGAF and others can address some of these points when they have the time.
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Old 10-16-2018, 05:16 AM   #5470
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

It's posts like these that make me very hopeful about the prospect of someday being a 2 - 5 grinder.

Ofc I can't say for sure until I actually do it but I would be very happy with the yearly income and lifestyle of an average winning 2 5 player.

Thanks for the post bodybuilder and for confirming my suspicion that I can probably beat low and medium stakes games

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Old 10-16-2018, 12:22 PM   #5471
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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It's posts like these that make me very hopeful about the prospect of someday being a 2 - 5 grinder.

Ofc I can't say for sure until I actually do it but I would be very happy with the yearly income and lifestyle of an average winning 2 5 player.

Thanks for the post bodybuilder and for confirming my suspicion that I can probably beat low and medium stakes games

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You think you'd be happy with it, but unless you have a serious mental illness I'd be shocked if you still liked it after the first couple years.

I'm not here to deter you from giving it a shot. I felt exactly the same way you did when I was at your stage. Tons of people told me I would hate it. I ignored them all. They were right. And yet, I'm still glad I did it. So take your shot, I would be a hypocrite if I told you not to, but I feel compelled to warn you as others did me so that when you inevitably become disillusioned with it all you know that its not because there's something wrong with you and that the truth is actually the opposite.
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Old 10-16-2018, 12:40 PM   #5472
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Overall, if you're a pro you should be very grateful. With all of the free strat advice everywhere and yet the fish STILL show up and play terrible...its mind boggling that people are that irresponsible with money.
This has very little to do with them being irresponsible with money. Not everyone plays poker to make money. These "fish" play full well knowing they are -EV because they enjoy the game/gamble. Its their entertainment money. The more time you spend in the poker world the more you'll come to realize that in life, those guys are actually the sharks.

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I know that high stakes doesn't play this way but screw it then. Just move down and play at a level where the games will always be good.
This seems reasonable until you talk to guys who have been around a while and realize that only a decade ago tons of pros scoffed at the 5/10 games because it was too small to be worth it for them. I know a bunch of them that now play 1/3. I bet back then they considered the 5/10 and 10/20 games to be the level that would "always be good". You can't just move down forever to the games that will supposedly always be good and expect to make a decent living. Perhaps the 1/2 games will always be good, but that's because by the time the pros are forced to move down to that level they'll realize that its not worth it to play poker for $15/hr when they can go work at Starbucks or whatever and make that with no variance.



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Even DGAF is fortunate enough to have backers. If guys with an edge don't have the money to play high stakes on their dime, how can you expect the fish too?
Again, these "fish" have money from outside sources as a result of being successful in the real world. That's how they can afford it. They know they're going to lose in the long run. They pump this money into the poker ecosystem because its fun for them and they get something out of it. But its becoming increasingly less fun for them so they're taking their discretionary dollars elsewhere.
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Old 10-16-2018, 05:09 PM   #5473
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Yeah. Don't go diving or swimming so far from shore at times when they feed (dawn and dusk).

Also, I really give zero ****s since statistically the chance of getting killed in a car is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>shark.

Oh and it was head high and clean af this am. Combo swell ftw. Big crowd yet somehow they all just parted when I paddled and watched me. Well, all except for the SUP who tried to drop in and kill me (worse than sharks IMO) and despite me yelling "NO NO NO" from the peak as I stood up he still flung his 98756486 foot board over the lip.
Oh, good to know about the feeding times .

Lol what's a SUP?

I need to start surfing again.

edit: Stand Up Paddler?
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Old 10-16-2018, 05:14 PM   #5474
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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This has very little to do with them being irresponsible with money. Not everyone plays poker to make money. These "fish" play full well knowing they are -EV because they enjoy the game/gamble. Its their entertainment money. The more time you spend in the poker world the more you'll come to realize that in life, those guys are actually the sharks.

This seems reasonable until you talk to guys who have been around a while and realize that only a decade ago tons of pros scoffed at the 5/10 games because it was too small to be worth it for them. I know a bunch of them that now play 1/3. I bet back then they considered the 5/10 and 10/20 games to be the level that would "always be good". You can't just move down forever to the games that will supposedly always be good and expect to make a decent living. Perhaps the 1/2 games will always be good, but that's because by the time the pros are forced to move down to that level they'll realize that its not worth it to play poker for $15/hr when they can go work at Starbucks or whatever and make that with no variance.

Again, these "fish" have money from outside sources as a result of being successful in the real world. That's how they can afford it. They know they're going to lose in the long run. They pump this money into the poker ecosystem because its fun for them and they get something out of it. But its becoming increasingly less fun for them so they're taking their discretionary dollars elsewhere.
most of the regs and fish alike in 5/T and even 2/5 cant afford to play. One fairly standard swing and they'd be out of action for quite a while. That's why the majority of those games are toxic and depressing af. Most of them are average joes with average incomes who are gambling on poker.

A casino run game might have one whale per table. A private game is guaranteed to have 4+. People with money to lose haven't stopped playing poker, they've just stopped playing poker in casinos.
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Old 10-16-2018, 05:27 PM   #5475
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by cushlash View Post
You think you'd be happy with it, but unless you have a serious mental illness I'd be shocked if you still liked it after the first couple years.

I'm not here to deter you from giving it a shot. I felt exactly the same way you did when I was at your stage. Tons of people told me I would hate it. I ignored them all. They were right. And yet, I'm still glad I did it. So take your shot, I would be a hypocrite if I told you not to, but I feel compelled to warn you as others did me so that when you inevitably become disillusioned with it all you know that its not because there's something wrong with you and that the truth is actually the opposite.
Many thanks for the heads up, I appreciate you taking the time.

You probably are right but, like you, I guess it's something I need to find out for myself. I'm a long way away from being able to afford to play even 1 2 though so for now I'll just have to play the micros and live vicariously through you guys

Much love peeps!


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