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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old Yesterday, 06:09 PM   #5326
genghiskan
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

8o8,

Very interesting and insightful, to say the least. Thanks for sharing.
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Old Yesterday, 06:24 PM   #5327
harvardjay
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by 8o8 View Post
how different is it from going through your thought process in HHs and writing countless pages of high level pro poker advice?
I think there is a difference between teaching the mass non-playing or casual playing population in order to enlarge the pie (or market size) ... versus teaching specialized skills to the already good-to-expert playing public in a volume-based approach.

I think the former encourages more people to pick up the game. In contrast, I believe the latter actually inhibits growth while increasing the game's "costs" on a relative basis for everyone.
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Old Yesterday, 06:44 PM   #5328
water69
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by WorldBoFree View Post
HA!

All joking aside, those kind of experiences can really wake a person up to negative behaviors in their lives.

I've always said there are people who haven't done psychedelics and there are people that have. The people that have, subconsciously know that we all all connected somehow, which can really inform how you live your life.
Spot on. I’d say pretty much all of my trips have had a positive effect on my well being, one way or another, but that one was especially insightful. Pulled me out of a pretty bad place, and for that I’m very grateful.
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Old Yesterday, 10:18 PM   #5329
pewpewrobot
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by WorldBoFree View Post
Oh really? I didn't know Piosolver adjusted for reg tilt.

For what's its worth, I think most regs are making the most mistakes on the river, when deep, thinking through spots in a GTO way, when it ends up just being confirmation bias and missing the forest through the trees. Those mistakes are huge, and I'd be very careful before you think you can quantify the behavior of leak filled regs-trying to play-gto against other regs, playing live deep stack poker as a certainty. That's just bad science my dude, but maybe not, I've never even tried, because it seems futile to me.
GTO says you have to play a mixed strategy...call/fold/raise some of the time. At least thats what I tell myself when my chips get pushed away.


piosolver does give you a quantifiable edge looking at the entire strategy vs strategy (board + entire range + entire actions). whenever I've seen the results, the numbers aren't very big. now that I think about it though it's kind of dumb--the culmination of decisions for bad reg vs good reg probably looks like about a 10bb/100 win rate which seems reasonable.


for the most part, I don't think the live regs are putting in a lot of effort into studying. most of it is probably from watching some videos and spewing nonsense rather than a particularly methodical approach.
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Old Yesterday, 10:54 PM   #5330
pewpewrobot
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Didn’t get around to listening to the podcast yet (sorry dgaf ). Mind sharing what these traits are? Been a cash pro for a long time and wondering if they apply to me and other cash pros I know
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Originally Posted by 8o8 View Post
[sorry this ended up being a novel]

well there's baseline traits you have to have. if you're not smart and emotionally intelligent, you will fail. if you are poor at financial management / have spending problems, you will fail. if you have poor social skills, you may succeed but your winrate potential will be drastically cut, to the point that long term you will likely fail.

i'm not gonna guess at what DG's traits are that led him down this path, i'll let him speak to that himself. but i do enjoy listening to other players' journeys looking for these commonalities.
maybe certain level of cold heartedness...
I've played with construction workers, bus drivers, waiters, and other people that clearly can't afford to lose the amount of money that they're losing in this game. I think I'd even feel bad taking money from a struggling pro relying on poker to pay the bills. Also, another thing is that you could be playing with some real scum bags and still have to be nice. Once, there was a massive whale saying the most racist despicable **** in front of this Mexican and he just sat there and took it. I've also had a couple experiences where people are literally ready to fight at the table. Has anyone else had experiences like that? At some level, people have to rationalize all of that ****. Maybe there's some that quit before they start because it doesn't feel right.
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Old Today, 06:15 AM   #5331
borg23
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by pewpewrobot View Post
maybe certain level of cold heartedness...
I've played with construction workers, bus drivers, waiters, and other people that clearly can't afford to lose the amount of money that they're losing in this game. I think I'd even feel bad taking money from a struggling pro relying on poker to pay the bills. Also, another thing is that you could be playing with some real scum bags and still have to be nice. Once, there was a massive whale saying the most racist despicable **** in front of this Mexican and he just sat there and took it. I've also had a couple experiences where people are literally ready to fight at the table. Has anyone else had experiences like that? At some level, people have to rationalize all of that ****. Maybe there's some that quit before they start because it doesn't feel right.
i'd feel bad for the kids of these busto degens but if they don't lose it to me they'll lose it to someone else in a poker game or in the pit.but i don't take some extra satisfaction in taking their money.

as for the struggling pro- it's great burying these guys in a poker game.it helps keeps the games good, and honestly you're probably doing them a favor putting them out of their poker misery.
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Old Today, 08:29 AM   #5332
Petrucci
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by 8o8 View Post
[sorry this ended up being a novel]

well there's baseline traits you have to have. if you're not smart and emotionally intelligent, you will fail. if you are poor at financial management / have spending problems, you will fail. if you have poor social skills, you may succeed but your winrate potential will be drastically cut, to the point that long term you will likely fail.

that's basic, but the interesting one is societal fit. people who have the above traits generally have many lucrative career options available to them that are stable and do not involve all of the complications that playing poker professionally does. various types of analysis jobs, jobs in finance and banking, high level sales positions, entrepreneurship, management consulting, and many other really good careers involve almost the same mix of skills as profitable poker.

they also give you things like stability, pension, benefits, and good hours. these things are orgasmic to a cash pro after 15 years of playing who's staring down the barrel of another 25 if he wants to save up and retire or semi-retire at any point. particularly in the US where high quality health insurance is so prohibitively expensive. (note, you can mitigate a lot of these problems by having supplemental income and mixing in benefits from a spouse's employment. but it's not always easy to hook those up).

so to walk away from the above career opportunities, there has to be something about you that's a little bit wack. something that makes you never quite fit into the way most smart people target success in wealthy countries.

there are many answers to what that thing can be. often it's a combination of things. if the incompatibility isn't strong enough, pros tend to begin exploring ways to ween their income off of poker. the poker pro that lasts and keeps grinding games into their 50s and 60s is likely a bit of a myth (although it does happen and it's usually not pretty.) part of that is the game just loses appeal and glamour inevitably over time. part of it is likely that people grow more tolerant of the things that "suck" about normal career paths as they grow older. in some cases, realizing the cap on earnings potential in poker (about 200k/yr. avg, long term), people's financial goals get loftier, and they look elsewhere to try to realize them.

mine was that i hated every job, or the idea of every job, i ever had or considered. i didn't have a problem with authority, or schedule, or general laziness, like some would surmise, it was just a matter of enjoyment. i hated doing the actual job. i'm just basically born to be an artist and artistic pursuits don't pay. (my ideal job money no object would be a musician.) i'm a weird mix of logical/analytical thinking and high financial/lifestyle goals with artistic/creative leaning. few jobs combine that in a way that i like. the more artistic/creative they are, the less they pay. the less artistic they are, the more i start to hate them.

poker hits the right balance because it's the perfect mix of quant and qual. every hand involves analysis, which i enjoy in dosed amounts. but the lifeblood of being a pro is your sensitivity to people (which is an artistic experience to me). i can sit at a table and size people up 80% based on intuition and intangible stuff i'm picking up on without knowing it. accurately. and i love doing it (and combining it with logical assessments). in a way, because the quantitative part of poker is actually quite simple, the game is really a very human experience. and human beings are perhaps the most elaborate works of art that exist.

in the end, my financial, lifestyle, and fulfillment goals have become loftier than they once were. and you just can't make all that much money in poker, or create anything amazing and put it into the world. so i'm exploring entrepreneurship (brand is design based and involves art) as a path to realize those things, with poker as a supplement. so far i've completely surprised myself with how much i'm enjoying the work (1500+ hrs deep at this point). it's the only thing other than poker that pays $ i've ever enjoyed.

i'm not gonna guess at what DG's traits are that led him down this path, i'll let him speak to that himself. but i do enjoy listening to other players' journeys looking for these commonalities.

Very very interesting stuff. I can relate to alot of this, both the different aspects/concepts you touch uppon,general red line of these things, and alot of the smaller details that i also could have written alot about here. Instead i am gonna write little bit about my "twisted" personality.

One of my personal traits is that i am highly sensetive, wich i have been for as long as i can remember. For those of you that are unfamiliar with this type of personality i can explain a little bit. High sensetive people often gets mentally drained quicker when interacting with other humans, because we are born with an ability to soak up alot more of other peoples energy, feelings and body language. High sensetive people can often feel a deeper and more complete connection to music than "normal" people. High sensetive people is often extremely analytical, knows how to predict the future in various ways based on patterns, knowing different types of people and their defense mechanism and how to cope with the world despite their insecurites. High sensetive people is dangerously accurate when it comes to gauging transparency-or the lack of such in other humans. If another person is trying to put on a mask trying to be somebody he/she is not, or if a person doesent have pure good intentions when interracting socially: the high sensetive person pick up on this instantly. There is nowhere to hide.

It took me a while in my grown up life to discover how to handle this personality type for myself in a constructive positive way, after many years of suffering in different ways- with clinical depression as a side effect as a direct example. Ive always found it very hard to cope with the mainstream society and their set of unwrittes rules in many arenas, because ive always from a was a kid felt i was different in many ways. Even though i of course back then when i was young coudnt pinpoint what was going on. Its so mentally draining in periods to be constructed this way, wich is why i learned that i need alot of downtime or time alone charging my batteries regurarly-alot more than the average person needs.

But, after a while i discovered (live)poker- and slowly i learned how valuable my special personality of being a highly sensetive is in poker. Finally i felt like home,finally i felt like ive discovered a way to make extra money when i feel fully charged and ready- where i have a secret weapon that very few have: plus it is invincible.Most people havent even heard of highly sensetive persons. Still after many years of playing even many regs who have logged hundreds of hours with me cant wrap their head around how what they see as a "tight abc player" is winning basically every night unless he gets sucked out on. They cant understand how i manage to show up with a limped premium everytime the whale decides to spazz out pre with garbage. They cant understand how i manage to fold QQ pre when the spewy actionplayer jams for 150 blinds pre because i can feel his energy and body language all over the table when he have the nutz. They dont understand why they never will be able to get a firm grip of how i really play.They arent capable of observing what i am really doing, and they arent capable of seing how its all chained together. Ive comed to peace after many years with the fact that they dont see the things i am seing,they arent feeling the energies i am,they arent analyzing the table the way i am,they arent paying attention to the level of details i am- and so forth.

Like you mentioned so precisely, it usually takes me a very short period of time before i have profiled each person at the table, i know how they play, i know if they are scared money,i know if they are very unbalanced in any sort of way in their game, i know if they are capable of bluffing big/not bluffing, i know if they will tilt if they get sucked out in a big pot or not, i know their ranges: and i instantly almost on automatic starts to map out the best exploitative plays against the dynamics i know is going on. Like, often i feel like i know what a certain player is gonna do- even before he knows it himself. The patterns are just so so predictable,its built in over time, it is in the human nature so its hard to change for anyone- and i feel most players have builded up a certain way of playing through many years with blindspots they arent able to see. But i see it.

I dunno if this is uninteresting personal rambling to any of you guys, but i felt like sharing this wich is something i havent done many times in my life- only with a couple of very good friends.

Last edited by Petrucci; Today at 08:38 AM.
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Old Today, 09:10 AM   #5333
uberkuber
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

@Petrucci
I, for one, found your story fascinating. Thanks for sharing it!
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Old Today, 10:28 AM   #5334
genghiskan
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
I dunno if this is uninteresting personal rambling to any of you guys
Not in the slightest. What are the common exterior traits of highly sensitive people, if there are any? How would you spot a fellow highly sensitive person?
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Old Today, 11:01 AM   #5335
Petrucci
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by genghiskan View Post
Not in the slightest. What are the common exterior traits of highly sensitive people, if there are any? How would you spot a fellow highly sensitive person?
Very good question actually, and not that easy to answer. It excists several written articles on different platforms regarding high senestive persons- but i dont have any links on the go for you now unfortunately.

But how i personally manage to spot them is by paying attention to patterns in their life and similarites between us. High sensetive persons more often than others is having mental problems/mental challenges, because they are stronger connected to their senses and feelings than other people wich makes it easier to get overwhelmed+ they as mentioned before soak up alot more of other peoples energy, feelings and body language without making the choice to do so. It just happens. I can recognize them over time when i can correlate us having alot in common, that i can see them being same as me on many instances. For example if they need to be alone alot more than the average person reflecting/listening to music/paint/writing or other things. For example having conversations with them and detect if they pick up on the same things as me or can see the same things i do regarding to knowing people,who is false, who has pure intentions and being themself, and so on. High sensetive persons brains are going full steam all the time basically, and they are often extremely good socially because of their abilities with stronger senses- when it comes to pick up on group dynamics, peoples habits and why they have these habits,analyzing other persons behaviour (why they do x and y compared to others) and these kind of things. They are often very strong individuals,they often make other kind of life choices/untraditional life choices than the majority (for example choosing to not have kids, travelling the world,going on adventures like extreme sports or free diving, playing poker, choosing the unknown paths more often than the certain ones) they often doesent care what other people think of them.

I have been seing another pattern over time also regarding this-wich i dont think is a coincidence. Many pokerplayers i have met during the years are high sensetive persons (and solid cashgame players in particular),more so than in any other arena i have managed to identify. So i definetely agree on what 8o8 said in an earlier post regarding cashgame pros often is having a set of special personality traits, because you need those to succeed-and one of these amongst many other things i am sure of is being highly sensetive. So high sensetive persons is in my opinion attracted to poker, because this personality type is simply great for poker. Many people who is highly sensetive doesent even know it themself, so i would wager alot of money that the percentage of successful pokerplayers that is high sensetive is a pretty big number.

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