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Old 08-09-2018, 03:57 PM   #4851
Sean Snyder
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by NoExit View Post
Checking your post history, you seem to be doubtful that anyone can successfully play poker for a living unless they’re receiving daddy’s assistance or are some sick degen in debt.
Below like 20/40 big bet (because there's no such thing as a 10/20 that stays 10/20 anymore) and 200/400 limit it is almost entirely true. At those stakes and higher, it's also often true.

I don't know the 2 guys in question and don't care how they're doing. Maybe they're the exception to the rule right now. Get back to me in 10 years and tell me if that's still true. Maybe they'll be the lucky lottery winners. Probably someone else will be paying the rake they used to pay.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:20 PM   #4852
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I’m lost. How are poker grinders who have roommates to cut expenses/have more savings any different from a grown ass man with a 55k/year job who has to do the same? And who said the grinders were barely scraping by? They can afford to get their own place but would rather save the extra $1500/month. Is that hard to believe?

Checking your post history, you seem to be doubtful that anyone can successfully play poker for a living unless they’re receiving daddy’s assistance or are some sick degen in debt. You know the saying - those who cannot do it refuse to believe others can. I’ll leave it at that.
Average incomes have to be one of the most misused metrics of all time.

There's not really a good way to say this... if you're a grown ass man with real bills and responsibilities making ~50k living in LA then you're a sucker/lazy pos / loser. You're poor. Why you or anyone else would think it's a good metric is mind boggling. I don't know why you're comparing yourself to a bunch of underachievers/losers.

I don't think anyone is making 150k+ a year (which would be the absolute min amount I would consider moving to LA self employed) grinding away at 5/10. I just gotta call bull**** on that.

Real estate/COL in LA is insane. I shouldn't have to explain to you how little a person can save (especially self employed and making sub 100k) in LA and what a terrible investment paying rent is long term. The $ figure certainly looks large, but not after you consider the high cost of living in LA/ Socal.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:28 PM   #4853
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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if you're a grown ass man with real bills and responsibilities making ~50k living in LA then you're a sucker/lazy pos / loser
I have a friend who makes about 50K and his wife makes about the same who live in LA. It's very hard for them to make the ends meet, no doubt, but they do their best to live frugally and raise their 2 kids.

Next time I see him, I'll be sure to tell him what a pos loser he is.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:37 PM   #4854
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I have a friend who makes about 50K and his wife makes about the same who live in LA. It's very hard for them to make the ends meet, no doubt, but they do their best to live frugally and raise their 2 kids.

Next time I see him, I'll be sure to tell him what a pos loser he is.
When your friends could move to a different blue state/ county, take a 20% pay cut and yet still be homeowners in no time and live an extremely comfortable and stress free life compared to LA, then yeah... you're friends are suckers/ not that smart.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:45 PM   #4855
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

oh so all janitors and elementary school teachers are losers and pos? okay then

I guess the case workers that work with underprivileged children/drug addicts are all human slime as well? good to know
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:17 PM   #4856
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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But it begs the question do those kids actually need / depend on money made from poker in the first place which I would say is a hard no.
Based on your incredible depths of knowledge about them, which is that they share a nice apartment in the LA area and play 5/5, you're rating it a hard no.

LOeffingL
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:25 PM   #4857
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I don't think anyone is making 150k+ a year (which would be the absolute min amount I would consider moving to LA self employed) grinding away at 5/10. I just gotta call bull**** on that.
LOL. Just cause you can't do it doesn't mean there aren't others who can.

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There's not really a good way to say this... if
you're a grown ass man with real bills and responsibilities making ~50k living in LA then you're a sucker/lazy pos / loser. You're poor. Why you or anyone else would think it's a good metric is mind boggling. I don't know why you're comparing yourself to a bunch of underachievers/losers.
There's not really a nice way to say this... if you're a grown ass man with real bills and responsibilities who can't beat poker, so instead spends countless hours on 2p2 attacking people who can then you're a clown/pos/loser. You're broke in happiness. Why you or anyone else would think that's a good use of your time is mind boggling. I don't know why you can't get it through your head that there exist people on this planet who are better than you at this game, or why you think it's your purpose in life to try to get them to quit something they're good at.

There's also not really a nice way to say this... if you're a grown ass man with life experience and responsibilities who thinks it's cool to **** all over teachers, cops, firefighters, garbage collectors, or generally speaking nearly 50% of human beings in Los Angeles by calling them suckers, pieces of **** and losers then you, sir, are the piece of **** loser.

If I end up eating a ban/infraction for this being a personal attack, then someone damn well better ban him for his personal attack on every hard working person below the median salary in Los Angeles.
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:24 PM   #4858
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Cuse is off the rails again lol. Take a break bro.

I think the work some people do for low pay is incredibly noble, but in the name of capitalism and quality of life IN LARGE CITIES they're losers.

I don't think highly of people who put their job above everything else in their lives. Particularly when it comes at the expense, suffering, and lost opportunities for their spouse/kids. And that goes both ways, for rich and poor.

Nobody is forcing anyone to live off social work or other low paying (but rewarding) jobs in HCOL areas. There's also nothing that prevents people from giving back, donating, and empowering their communities outside of work either. In fact the second option is probably more EV for all parties including those in need.

Life does indeed exist outside of the major cities and in fact is a much better place to live for the average joe.
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:38 PM   #4859
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

doubling down on idiocy is not always a great look
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:15 PM   #4860
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Imo well spoken by Cuse, as Upswinging is way out of line (again, as in alot of other threads too).

But could we please keep this one thread by the legendary DGAF clean of this kind of BS? Like i suggest take the dirty laundry elsewhere than this thread. Its quite disrespectful both to DGAF,and to all the great posters who have contributed along the way during the course of this amazing thread.
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:19 PM   #4861
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Living in a poker house grinding 5/5 in LA sure sounds great... if you're a stone degen. I'm even highly skeptical anyone can grind out enough at 5/T for a middle class lifestyle... unless they're living in daddy's guest house.
I think playing poker as a career is disaster. It never has a happy ending. Having said that, this is a bit judgmental man.
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:26 PM   #4862
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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They share a 3k luxury resort apartment with 2 bedrooms by the beach. Not exactly a dingy poker crash pad IYAM. You know the average income in LA is about 55k right? How do you think people with regular jobs paying 30k-40k after taxes live? Roommate situations are the norm in high cost areas like LA, even amongst people with with regular jobs. Most successful pros can make double the average income and have a better shot of getting out of daddy's guesthouse to eventually buy a home than the average young person in LA.
While I imagine there is a huge survivorship bias in your winrate estimate, I envy the lifestyle described- sincerely. Everyone should do what they are doing (not necessarily poker, but that roommate on the beach life) for at least a couple years before they start their real life grind imo.

I used to live in a 3 br apartment on Newport Beach Peninsula with 5 other guys (one lived in the stairwell lol). It was degen as **** and absolutely amazing. Zero regrets.
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:31 PM   #4863
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by pewpewrobot View Post
5/10 is where you can start making doctor level income if you play well and game select well. Source: winrates thread, neeme vlog, dgaf himself/this thread. Even though everyone complains about the toughening, thereís still a lot of money to be made in live poker.
Very few have the skills to do it running even (you have to have something big on the field and be great at creating sh action fests), but yeah. I agree with this post.
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:34 PM   #4864
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Theres no doubt a kid living in their daddy's guest house will save money and give them a better shot. But it begs the question do those kids actually need / depend on money made from poker in the first place which I would say is a hard no.

If you want to have roomies/ pay rent as a grown ass man then go for it. Different strokes for different folks. But generally, as an adults responsibilities and tastes grow... living with roomies, paying rent, barely scrapping by sounds less appealing the older you get.

Grinding 5/5 NL in LA with flatmates just sounds kinda naive/ childish... as much as someone moving to LA to be an actor or comedian is.
It certainly isnít sustainable, but what you said about different strokes is 100% right imo.
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:39 PM   #4865
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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The thing is though that all of these people are past the point of sitting around figuring out what to do with themselves. Their desire to be an actor/comedian/poker player has overtaken their apprehension about actually doing it. At this point they've likely come to terms with the fact that failure is possible, if not probable, and they've decided to do it anyway. Can't knock it IMO. Gotta do you
+ 1
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:43 PM   #4866
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by Sean Snyder View Post
Below like 20/40 big bet (because there's no such thing as a 10/20 that stays 10/20 anymore) and 200/400 limit it is almost entirely true. At those stakes and higher, it's also often true.

I don't know the 2 guys in question and don't care how they're doing. Maybe they're the exception to the rule right now. Get back to me in 10 years and tell me if that's still true. Maybe they'll be the lucky lottery winners. Probably someone else will be paying the rake they used to pay.
Ha Sean officially a grizzled old vet!

My final thoughts on the discussion:

A) itís unsustainable (I agree with Sean)
B) judge not
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:47 PM   #4867
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
Average incomes have to be one of the most misused metrics of all time.

There's not really a good way to say this... if you're a grown ass man with real bills and responsibilities making ~50k living in LA then you're a sucker/lazy pos / loser. You're poor. Why you or anyone else would think it's a good metric is mind boggling. I don't know why you're comparing yourself to a bunch of underachievers/losers.

I don't think anyone is making 150k+ a year (which would be the absolute min amount I would consider moving to LA self employed) grinding away at 5/10. I just gotta call bull**** on that.

Real estate/COL in LA is insane. I shouldn't have to explain to you how little a person can save (especially self employed and making sub 100k) in LA and what a terrible investment paying rent is long term. The $ figure certainly looks large, but not after you consider the high cost of living in LA/ Socal.
If you take the anger and judgment out of your posts the discussion will be so much more productive.
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:49 PM   #4868
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by genghiskan View Post
I have a friend who makes about 50K and his wife makes about the same who live in LA. It's very hard for them to make the ends meet, no doubt, but they do their best to live frugally and raise their 2 kids.

Next time I see him, I'll be sure to tell him what a pos loser he is.
Epic. I actually lolíd.
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:00 PM   #4869
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
Imo well spoken by Cuse, as Upswinging is way out of line (again, as in alot of other threads too).

But could we please keep this one thread by the legendary DGAF clean of this kind of BS? Like i suggest take the dirty laundry elsewhere than this thread. Its quite disrespectful both to DGAF,and to all the great posters who have contributed along the way during the course of this amazing thread.
Thanks. Yeah. Letís keep it respectful. Letís not judge. Letís not be close-minded... Letís also think long-term if possible. And with as little bias a possible (specifically survivorship). Thatís the real **** imo.
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:26 PM   #4870
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
While I imagine there is a huge survivorship bias in your winrate estimate, I envy the lifestyle described- sincerely. Everyone should do what they are doing (not necessarily poker, but that roommate on the beach life) for at least a couple years before they start their real life grind imo.

I used to live in a 3 br apartment on Newport Beach Peninsula with 5 other guys (one lived in the stairwell lol). It was degen as **** and absolutely amazing. Zero regrets.
Yeah I mean the guys splitting rent to play 5/5 actually doing it right. They moved from Florida to do this so they obv thought it out. They've identified more profitable games and know they need to live as frugally as possible to pull it off. If you are obsessed with poker and are good enough to make a living at it and don't want to do anything else there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Contrast this to the part timer who has been playing 15hrs/week for 5 years, has a self assessed inflated winrate, and decides to quit his job, take his $50k, move to Vegas and start grinding 40hrs/week. He has not planned properly and for him trying to play fulltime is likely a big mistake
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:46 PM   #4871
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I think playing poker as a career is disaster. It never has a happy ending. Having said that, this is a bit judgmental man.
I don’t remember your exact poker career history, but you were probably bringing in doctor salary ($100k+/year) for many years before you got doomswitched and games dried up? If you had been more frugal (say shared a dingy crashpad on the beach with a fellow poker degen ) to keep your monthly expenses under 3k, you could’ve saved at least $50k/year. After 5 years of grinding, you would have a cool 250k saved. That’s better than most people in their 20s-30s. The money saved could’ve been invested wisely or used for a business venture. I understand survivorship bias, but it sounds like your main downfall was lack of money management in the earlier years. Therefore I’m having trouble seeing why you think poker never has a happy ending. Approached wisely with a large bankroll to handle the variance and an endgoal in sight, disciplined folks could make it work.

Last edited by NoExit; 08-09-2018 at 09:57 PM. Reason: Formatting error
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:22 PM   #4872
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Snyder View Post
Below like 20/40 big bet (because there's no such thing as a 10/20 that stays 10/20 anymore) and 200/400 limit it is almost entirely true. At those stakes and higher, it's also often true.

I don't know the 2 guys in question and don't care how they're doing. Maybe they're the exception to the rule right now. Get back to me in 10 years and tell me if that's still true. Maybe they'll be the lucky lottery winners. Probably someone else will be paying the rake they used to pay.

I sincerely believe this was posted to deter aspiring pros as the poker economy is already overfished.

Off the top of my head, I know more than ten 5/10 grinders all over the US who’ve been playing for a living for 5+ years. Some of them could have other sources of income I don’t know about but all I know is they play at least 30 hours a week and crush the games. They are definitely the top 5% (at least) of their player pool. Whether they are happy and fulfilled is another story, but they definitely don’t seem to be struggling financially showing up day after day to the casino with a pocket full of bullets.

I’m sure you know some of these players I’m thinking of as they are the face of Aria, Commerce, Oceans, Seminole, Talking Stick, Foxwoods, etc... and most of them have hundreds of followers on Twitter.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:10 AM   #4873
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Yeah I mean the guys splitting rent to play 5/5 actually doing it right. They moved from Florida to do this so they obv thought it out. They've identified more profitable games and know they need to live as frugally as possible to pull it off. If you are obsessed with poker and are good enough to make a living at it and don't want to do anything else there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Contrast this to the part timer who has been playing 15hrs/week for 5 years, has a self assessed inflated winrate, and decides to quit his job, take his $50k, move to Vegas and start grinding 40hrs/week. He has not planned properly and for him trying to play fulltime is likely a big mistake
I always try to remember what the judge said to Mike when he went to him for a loan t pay off grandma. It was the smartest moment of that movie imo.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:43 AM   #4874
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I donít remember your exact poker career history, but you were probably bringing in doctor salary ($100k+/year) for many years before you got doomswitched and games dried up? If you had been more frugal (say shared a dingy crashpad on the beach with a fellow poker degen ) to keep your monthly expenses under 3k, you couldíve saved at least $50k/year. After 5 years of grinding, you would have a cool 250k saved. Thatís better than most people in their 20s-30s. The money saved couldíve been invested wisely or used for a business venture. I understand survivorship bias, but it sounds like your main downfall was lack of money management in the earlier years. Therefore Iím having trouble seeing why you think poker never has a happy ending. Approached wisely with a large bankroll to handle the variance and an endgoal in sight, disciplined folks could make it work.
A) When you talk about investing your profit after 5 years you are not talking about playing poker as a career; you are talking about playing poker as a job while you are young and then hitting and running it into investing.

B) I specifically said, "I think playing poker as a career is a disaster."

C) My results are all but irrelevant for 2 pretty obvious reasons (1. games are way tougher these days 2. I'm sorry, I may have done too good of job downplaying- I'm not your average pro).

D) Please site some examples of people who played 35 years full time and made it out alive?

E) Everything else itt
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:03 AM   #4875
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I sincerely believe this was posted to deter aspiring pros as the poker economy is already overfished.

Off the top of my head, I know more than ten 5/10 grinders all over the US who’ve been playing for a living for 5+ years. Some of them could have other sources of income I don’t know about but all I know is they play at least 30 hours a week and crush the games. They are definitely the top 5% (at least) of their player pool. Whether they are happy and fulfilled is another story, but they definitely don’t seem to be struggling financially showing up day after day to the casino with a pocket full of bullets.

I’m sure you know some of these players I’m thinking of as they are the face of Aria, Commerce, Oceans, Seminole, Talking Stick, Foxwoods, etc... and most of them have hundreds of followers on Twitter.
A) It sounds like you have lowered the number of years to 5+. Sean said 10 (~ 30% of a career ftr)...

B) Your number of alleged examples is "over 10"- still seems way more like the exception than the rule...

C) Can't think of the face of Aria. The one you may be thinking of has not been crushing for 5+ years...

D) Can't think of anyone at Commerce 5-10 either tbh...

E) Ocean's doesn't have 5-10 and no one in the 5-5 meets your description...

F) Never been to Seminole...

G) Taking Stick plays spread limit up to 500 and I think 5-10 is rare/way less than 30 hours/week

H) Never been to Foxwoods...

I try to not **** on poker pipe dreams anymore. I believe what the judge told Mike is true. But...

There are a million places to crown sun runners and glorify a slow gambling game with edge available as a skill game/sport. Ain't happening itt though until I kick rocks. Sorry...
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