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Old Yesterday, 05:44 PM   #4651
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by Thamel18 View Post
This is something I've dealt with, but on an internal level. One of my biggest mindset improvements in poker in general, but live poker especially, was learning to objectively observe my opponents' play, without attaching emotional or judgmental labels to it.

Ex : Player calls my flop c-bet on QJ9 with something like 77-22 and ends up winning somehow.
Old internal Reaction : "UGH what a fish! Damnit"
New internal reaction : "I should avoid single barrel bluffing this guy, and be ready to fire 1-2 more times when I do bluff flop. I can also go thinner for value on flop&turn"

Ex. 2 : Player IP bets top 2 pair HU on JT53 flop and turn, but checks back a blank river like a 2.
Old Internal Reaction : "Look at this fool miss such easy value!"
New internal reaction : "Player is timid about going for river value. Are they capable of making river bluffs, if so we should consider making a light river call in some situations. Perhaps these 2 players are friends & don't bet eachother on the river? More observation needed for sure."

Being judgmental & emotional gets you stuck in the past and bogs down your ability to play your A-game, when you should be thinking about how you will adjust against them in future hands.
It's been a decade since I got upset over how someone else played a hand, but I'm old. Excellent post.
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Old Yesterday, 05:46 PM   #4652
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

This thread is v interesting...

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...poker-1718029/
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Old Yesterday, 06:17 PM   #4653
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Serious question (I don't know/remember), are you a pro or rec?
Serious rec/hobbyist. Play to make side money but it's a form of entertainment for me as well.

Not that I wanna play in tough games all the time but a crusher who gives a gambly, friendly, social vibe is way better for a game than a middling pro who sits in a trance at the table.

Obv I'm a dog versus the crusher but he/she is gonna liven the game up the game and increase the EV for the for-profit players. Grinder-y regs who look and act serious are a plague on the ecosystem. They aren't the toughest to play against but they're the nut low for attracting rec players. And as rec player, I should be catered to. Its astonishing how many for-profit regs just dont get 'it'.
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Old Yesterday, 06:27 PM   #4654
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Serious rec/hobbyist. Play to make side money but it's a form of entertainment for me as well.

Not that I wanna play in tough games all the time but a crusher who gives a gambly, friendly, social vibe is way better for a game than a middling pro who sits in a trance at the table.

Obv I'm a dog versus the crusher but he/she is gonna liven the game up the game and increase the EV for the for-profit players. Grinder-y regs who look and act serious are a plague on the ecosystem. They aren't the toughest to play against but they're the nut low for attracting rec players. And as rec player, I should be catered to. Its astonishing how many for-profit regs just dont get 'it'.
Thanks. So you do it in a sustainable way as well. GJ.

I agree with what you wrote mostly, but the comparison was someone giving it away (but being an a-hole) vs a top notch pro. Also, another slight clarification--> Those who are good for the game should be catered to, and it's a sliding scale obv of just how good for the game you are (not just in terms of poker skill- there are many other factors obv). It has little to do with "rec" or "pro" at this point. Some "pros" are v good for the game and some "recs" are v bad for the game. And everything in between. Imo.
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Old Yesterday, 06:35 PM   #4655
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I did a couple poker content solo podcasts recently. One of the segments was called "New Pro (side job)". I basically said that the only sustainable way to play poker professionally is to have it be your side job- not something you absolutely depend on. I asked people to look at the data--> NO ONE makes it a career playing full time (for a myriad of reasons that have already been belabored itt). I also asked them to at least think about just being "poker players" (as opposed to "poker pros"), never playing so much that they burn out, never being in a position where they can't take a break when a big downswing comes, being more coy with their skills, results, etc.

And yet, you've already been doing this for decades. You are the model imo.
This is exactly what I am planning on doing. Just moved to Irvine area for a new job, and plan to grind quite a bit on the side with the intention of hopefully making enough to cover the 3k/mo rent as well as growing the bankroll to take some shots at bigger games. I have a 60 buyin bankroll for 5/5 set aside, 6 months living expenses, and a 150-200k/yr (depending on how company stock does) job. My wife will also be getting a job eventually once we get settled in and she gets her nursing license (an aside, get your **** together CA, every other state can do a Licensure by Endorsement in like 2 weeks, and you take 12+!)

If I ever have a bad month, no stress at all, I'll just pay everything out of cashflow. Should make being enjoyable at the table and playing my best much easier than if I was 100% depending on having significantly positive results month in and month out.
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Old Yesterday, 06:45 PM   #4656
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Thanks. So you do it in a sustainable way as well. GJ.

I agree with what you wrote mostly, but the comparison was someone giving it away (but being an a-hole) vs a top notch pro. Also, another slight clarification--> Those who are good for the game should be catered to, and it's a sliding scale obv of just how good for the game you are (not just in terms of poker skill- there are many other factors obv). It has little to do with "rec" or "pro" at this point. Some "pros" are v good for the game and some "recs" are v bad for the game. And everything in between. Imo.
I tend to agree with JRR partly because it seems we have a similar backgrounds. We both play for extra money but are successful professionally outside the casino. I'm not going to put up with a ****bag just because hes an uber donator. I also DGAF about calling regs out for being predatory and in general bad for the game.

That said, it's tiring to be the life of the table sometimes. I'd say 80% of the time I'm driving the banter. 20% of the time I'm more reserved due to being stressed, tired, whatever. All I'm asking is for others who are obviously there to make a profit to step up and do all they can to create a fun environment when I dont have the energy to do so.
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Old Yesterday, 06:47 PM   #4657
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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This is exactly what I am planning on doing. Just moved to Irvine area for a new job, and plan to grind quite a bit on the side with the intention of hopefully making enough to cover the 3k/mo rent as well as growing the bankroll to take some shots at bigger games. I have a 60 buyin bankroll for 5/5 set aside, 6 months living expenses, and a 150-200k/yr (depending on how company stock does) job. My wife will also be getting a job eventually once we get settled in and she gets her nursing license (an aside, get your **** together CA, every other state can do a Licensure by Endorsement in like 2 weeks, and you take 12+!)

If I ever have a bad month, no stress at all, I'll just pay everything out of cashflow. Should make being enjoyable at the table and playing my best much easier than if I was 100% depending on having significantly positive results month in and month out.
This all seems so smart, reasonable, healthy and sustainable. Are you sure you are a poker player?
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Old Yesterday, 06:54 PM   #4658
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I tend to agree with JRR partly because it seems we have a similar backgrounds. We both play for extra money but are successful professionally outside the casino. I'm not going to put up with a ****bag just because hes an uber donator. I also DGAF about calling regs out for being predatory and in general bad for the game.

That said, it's tiring to be the life of the table sometimes. I'd say 80% of the time I'm driving the banter. 20% of the time I'm more reserved due to being stressed, tired, whatever. All I'm asking is for others who are obviously there to make a profit to step up and do all they can to create a fun environment when I dont have the energy to do so.
Well, yeah...
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Old Yesterday, 07:00 PM   #4659
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Well, yeah...
Lol I felt like a broken record when i wrote my post.
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Old Yesterday, 07:24 PM   #4660
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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This all seems so smart, reasonable, healthy and sustainable. Are you sure you are a poker player?
Ha! I don't know if I would call myself a poker player, more someone who enjoys poker. I think that enjoyment would cease the moment I was depending on the money.

Right now if I want to drink at the table, I drink. If I want to straddle, I straddle. If I want to gamble on a loose call, I do it and don't have to stress the result. I can't imagine not being able to do those things and still having fun.
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Old Yesterday, 07:37 PM   #4661
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Hey DGAF. I just noticed all the new episodes and the new posts in this thread. Good to see things are moving forward! Thanks for the hard work! I'll listen / read a bit later then give some comments I'm especially looking forward to the poker stories. Some hand histories would also be appreciated, along with in-depth strategy thoughts. Maybe thats not what you want for this podcast though? But I feel like there is still a dearth of quality hand analysis nowadays. I love Doug Polks stuff a lot and even the Poker Guys aren't that bad. Just some insider stories of cool hands you played would be nice.
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Old Yesterday, 08:10 PM   #4662
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Ha! I don't know if I would call myself a poker player, more someone who enjoys poker. I think that enjoyment would cease the moment I was depending on the money.

Right now if I want to drink at the table, I drink. If I want to straddle, I straddle. If I want to gamble on a loose call, I do it and don't have to stress the result. I can't imagine not being able to do those things and still having fun.
QFT
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Old Yesterday, 08:21 PM   #4663
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Hey DGAF. I just noticed all the new episodes and the new posts in this thread. Good to see things are moving forward! Thanks for the hard work! I'll listen / read a bit later then give some comments I'm especially looking forward to the poker stories. Some hand histories would also be appreciated, along with in-depth strategy thoughts. Maybe thats not what you want for this podcast though? But I feel like there is still a dearth of quality hand analysis nowadays. I love Doug Polks stuff a lot and even the Poker Guys aren't that bad. Just some insider stories of cool hands you played would be nice.
Hey man, we dissect you (lol) in our most recent ep. I hope you get something from it. We are going to get to your other emails as well. Thanks so much for all the support and participation. Without even knowing you, you are one of the most interesting people I know!

Both David and I marveled at your self-awareness. And because of it, we think you can and will find what you are looking for (what you are really look for) soon.

Our show will always have some poker flavor I assume (poker is permanently a part of me at this point). And I did do two solo episodes where I spewed what I could about poker (it's hard for me at this point- just no interest in it). Mainly though I'm way more interested in the game of life, with all the same principles in tact (be strategic, be good for the game, do stuff that is sustainable, etc)...

We do have a Sean Snyder II episode coming though, and a Garret Adelstein, aka "GMAN" episode coming as well. So that will hopefully satisfy your poker jones a little.

Spoiler:


Cheers
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Old Yesterday, 09:01 PM   #4664
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

A wealthy business owner runs it out of one his properties after hours. It runs weekdays only and is dealt by professional dealers.

Monday Wednesday is 20/40 full kill lhe or o8. Tuesday Thursday is 1/3 or 2/5 no cap, straddle from any position for any amount.

There's no rake/time. You're expected to tip the dealer and leave a tip when you cash out. I get a text the day before asking if I want a seat. If I don't get a text it means there's no seat or I'm not invited. Nobody can show up unannounced. It's just poker and booze, no strippers, drugs etc and it always ends at 2 am.

Stacks usually get really deep with $10-25 straddles near the end. It's probably because they are extremely picky with who is allowed to keep coming back. If you're a nit/******* etc you don't get invited back. Simple as that.

Besides locked doors and tinted glass there's no security. Then again everyone seems to know everyone else on a first name basis/ outside of poker too. It's nothing like a casino lineup. Still concerning though.
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Old Yesterday, 09:17 PM   #4665
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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A wealthy business owner runs it out of one his properties after hours. It runs weekdays only and is dealt by professional dealers.

Monday Wednesday is 20/40 full kill lhe or o8. Tuesday Thursday is 1/3 or 2/5 no cap, straddle from any position for any amount.

There's no rake/time. You're expected to tip the dealer and leave a tip when you cash out. I get a text the day before asking if I want a seat. If I don't get a text it means there's no seat or I'm not invited. Nobody can show up unannounced. It's just poker and booze, no strippers, drugs etc and it always ends at 2 am.

Stacks usually get really deep with $10-25 straddles near the end. It's probably because they are extremely picky with who is allowed to keep coming back. If you're a nit/******* etc you don't get invited back. Simple as that.

Besides locked doors and tinted glass there's no security. Then again everyone seems to know everyone else on a first name basis/ outside of poker too. It's nothing like a casino lineup. Still concerning though.
Interesting. Thanks.

What are the tip expectations specifically? I always thought it should just be the winners, but idk.
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Old Yesterday, 10:19 PM   #4666
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Nice post. You prob will never hear me say anything positive about casino poker other than it's safe (mostly), regulated (pretty well actually), and rake is typically not insurmountable at $5 big blind games and higher. Having said that, I would love to hear about the games you seem to be playing in. Are there really games on the up and up that aren't gouging? What's the model- specifically? Had no idea they really existed.
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I'm digging your take on this. Please share the details of one of the games you play in. Is it at a house? Is there security? What are the blinds? What is the buyin? WHAT IS THE RAKE? Is there a shuffle machine? Etc.

Thanks. My ears are perked up for the first time really on this topic. All the SD casinos are squashing the bigger games anyways/no place to play.
I prefer the safety and convenience of a casino so I'd never run a game, but I'm sure there are plenty of fair/fun ones out there.

Despite a lot of noise with regard to the state of NLHE in our local waters, I actually think both cardrooms have made good decisions recently that are likely to extend the lives of their medium stakes games. Possibly too little too late (if our attempts to get anyone to play poker with us from 1:46am onward are any indication) but I like what they are trying to do.

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The worse you are, the worse you get to act. That's the rule imo. And when you want a top notch pro to replace the drunk a-hole, you have begun the transition from pro to rec player (not a bad thing at all, just saying).
You know my philosophy on this one. Almost everyone has an occasional meltdown (I've had more than a few) when they are drunk/losing but nobody gets to be the gross person that's screaming racial, sexual, homophobic, etc slurs at players, employees or random passersby on a regular basis. I've seen plenty of recreational players rack up and leave because one belligerent loudmouth is spewing endless filth. This gross type of person is without a doubt a contributor to the death of poker as a whole. Any person whose behavior you can look at and say "he will never get invited to a home game" is why live poker is dying, no matter how much that persons wins or loses. I'll take the pro that I can talk to about XYZ sports game, televised poker cash game, crypto news, news news, etc from the previous night sitting in my game in the morning over the "oh no, not that guy" entitled button pusher every day until the end of time.
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Old Yesterday, 10:21 PM   #4667
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

For those who haven't seen it, I suggest you look at the Poker News interview with my old friend Carl McKelvey, who's been a professional gambler/professional poker player for 40 years or so. Interview done by Ben Saxton, who also interviewed DGAF a few months ago.

Carl is one of the guys who taught me there was more to poker than trying to get lucky, and also how to act right at the table. He's one of the few who has made it through his decades in poker without going crazy or getting broke. And he's the only one in the group picture from WSOP number one (it's in Super System) who's still in action, if Doyle has actually retired.

Carl's advice on playing for a living is similar to DGAF's take - don't do it if you have any other decent options.

Here is the URL for the article:

https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/c...lers-31453.htm

You can also do a search for "Ben Saxton" on the Poker News site.

Last edited by jrr63; Yesterday at 10:35 PM. Reason: Link now works
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Old Yesterday, 10:40 PM   #4668
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I prefer the safety and convenience of a casino so I'd never run a game, but I'm sure there are plenty of fair/fun ones out there.

Despite a lot of noise with regard to the state of NLHE in our local waters, I actually think both cardrooms have made good decisions recently that are likely to extend the lives of their medium stakes games. Possibly too little too late (if our attempts to get anyone to play poker with us from 1:46am onward are any indication) but I like what they are trying to do.



You know my philosophy on this one. Almost everyone has an occasional meltdown (I've had more than a few) when they are drunk/losing but nobody gets to be the gross person that's screaming racial, sexual, homophobic, etc slurs at players, employees or random passersby on a regular basis. I've seen plenty of recreational players rack up and leave because one belligerent loudmouth is spewing endless filth. This gross type of person is without a doubt a contributor to the death of poker as a whole. Any person whose behavior you can look at and say "he will never get invited to a home game" is why live poker is dying, no matter how much that persons wins or loses. I'll take the pro that I can talk to about XYZ sports game, televised poker cash game, crypto news, news news, etc from the previous night sitting in my game in the morning over the "oh no, not that guy" entitled button pusher every day until the end of time.
Wait until you start running even (or worse) in these red chip rake fests. You may revisit the "I would never run a private game" statement. Also, when did you come to that conclusion lol? I thought you were considering it.

WRT to the second paragraph, we have different views. I'm cool with that.
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Old Yesterday, 10:43 PM   #4669
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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For those who haven't seen it, I suggest you look at the Poker News interview with my old friend Carl McKelvey, who's been a professional gambler/professional poker player for 40 years or so. Interview done by Ben Saxton, who also interviewed DGAF a few months ago.

Carl is one of the guys who taught me there was more to poker than trying to get lucky, and also how to act right at the table. He's one of the few who has made it through his decades in poker without going crazy or getting broke. And he's the only one in the group picture from WSOP number one (it's in Super System) who's still in action, if Doyle has actually retired.

Carl's advice on playing for a living is similar to DGAF's take - don't do it if you have any other decent options.

Here is the URL for the article:

https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/c...lers-31453.htm

You can also do a search for "Ben Saxton" on the Poker News site.
Looking forward to reading this. Ben is a boss ime. And I've heard the name Carl McKelvey forever.

Q- has he had any other income over the years aside from poker? An inheritance? A huge score?
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Old Yesterday, 11:57 PM   #4670
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Looking forward to reading this. Ben is a boss ime. And I've heard the name Carl McKelvey forever.

Q- has he had any other income over the years aside from poker? An inheritance? A huge score?
He's been a full time gambler since I've known him. He won a tournament back in the 80's and placed fairly high in the Main in that same time frame but they were not big money payouts in those days. He occasionally has had a gig as a "host" for cash games but as you probably know those are not big scores either.
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Old Today, 02:09 AM   #4671
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I was selling Carl short in terms of tourneys, he shows 44 cashes on Hendon mob including one for 100k and several in the high 5 figures. But no huge scores like you get binking a WSOP or WPT event these days.
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Old Today, 07:15 AM   #4672
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Finally got the time to listen to the poker related episodes of your pod DGAF. Really liked it. I like the way you "spew", as you put it yourself. Its real/down to earth, i think that is what attracts people to your personality or to the way you communicate. It doesent seems preplanned down to details or gives off this false vibes you can see amongst many people.

Anyway, ANYWAY- i think its very funny too that you in many ways talks similar to how you write

Got the chills down my back several times through the abyss stuff and when you explain about acting mentally ill- like probably due to years of insane negative stress from poker. Thats the raw honest health consequences right there. Also the QQJ-5 with Q5 against JJ for heaps allin on the turn only for the one outer river J gave me the chills. Because its so gross, and because i can relate to it having that painful feeling in the back of my mind. I play alot lower stakes than you normally, so the money amount on the line isnt comparable at all- but ive still played some huge deep pots wich for my bankroll and my personal situation was alot of money. The emotional pain ive been feeling during my worst downswings is hard to explain actually. Its some of the deepest dark kind of pain ive been feeling in my whole life when it is at its worst.

I am not sure if i have been really 100 percent in the Abyss, but if i havent i have been for sure getting my feet deep in there. Like i have been so frustrated and tilted after ridic session after ridic session, that ive literally have destroyed things (not just thinking about it like you mentioned or felt like doing it). Ive thrown a $800 laptop in the wall, smashing it into pieces after coming home after another unbeliveable session for some years ago. That particular session when i boiled over i flopped 5 sets,every single one of the sets got sucked out by my opponents hitting a miracle backdoor gutshot, even though i fired big every street and they just tried to give me their money.A new cellphone once got thrown into the wall, couple of months old.

Ive learned alot from these experiences though (and about myself), and your thread/posts have been a big part of it. Just having another guy put it into words in so accurate honest fashion,then get you to feel like you are not alone about experiencing that shyt have helped immensely. I am generally pretty decent with words/writing myself, even though i have to say that alot of pokerrelated stuff you describe incredibly accurate so that many people can relate to it. Its like you manage to translate all your experience, all your pain, all your countless hours at pokertables,all your ups and downs, the long process and alot more into words when you write.

Looking forward to more podcast episodes. Cheers from a Norwegian fan

Edit: and yeah, would love to have Garrett Adelstein on, he is the boss. I am not the only one of that opinion i would guess.

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