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Old 04-13-2018, 05:07 PM   #4301
SSC-Ry
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Damn seems like a pretty rough last year. That year from 8000 to 10,000hrs must have been fun though. haha
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Old 04-13-2018, 05:28 PM   #4302
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

sick that the slope on the latter half of that graph is higher than the first half

looks like you have lost 10000 BB before DGAF between 10K and 11K hours

also a similar stretch around the 4K hour mark
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:07 PM   #4303
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I know you said no questions but I have to ask

Almost doubling up Wilts number. How many stds?


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Old 04-13-2018, 06:22 PM   #4304
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Jesus
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:11 PM   #4305
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by cuserounder View Post


DGAF is in Wilt Chamberlain territory here...
This graph makes no sense to me given the thread that precedes it.

DGAF spent a significant portion of the thread discussing and warning about the abyss. I understand that it is in BBs not $ won so you can lose at higher stakes and win at lower stakes (also he may be recording a 2/5[10/20] as $5 BB?) making the graph not entirely representative of his true results.

Anyway this graph is not the graph I expected at all. Where are the extended downswings? Where is the mental anguish, the emotional struggle. It just doesn't compute. Also to have won all this money and then still be near 0 liquid cash having to borrow from friends to be in action and paying a ridiculous monthly nut that is becoming more and more difficult to squeeze out of live poker.. having long drives to casinos on the west coast punting off bullets into lineups that break after it's clear he's come to battle that causes you to stress out even more.. It just seems that however good DGAF plays, he plays really really poorly in other major aspects of his life.

I went pro a few months ago and this thread was instrumental to me for learning pitfalls to avoid. Not so much about the abyss tho. I get variance is glacial in duration and scale. What i'm getting at, and it's hard for anyone to divest yourself away from promoting self-worth and the narrative that you've come to self-describe yourself with, is that for this graph and this thread to be from the same person, many many more mistakes were made than spewing into nits that flopped sets. Money management skills for decreasing your monthly nut and not taking on responsibilities you are unable to reliably support as well as having a clear exit strategy and super strict discipline. That's what I take away from this thread. But the abyss... where was it?
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Old 04-13-2018, 11:18 PM   #4306
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

The Abyss is the little dips down that you see. Since the time line is 18k hours those dips are weeks and sometimes months long. The felt experience is different from the rational result.

The last break even stretch at the end of the graph is like almost a year long.




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Old 04-13-2018, 11:23 PM   #4307
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BERRI SOUR View Post
This graph makes no sense to me given the thread that precedes it.

DGAF spent a significant portion of the thread discussing and warning about the abyss. I understand that it is in BBs not $ won so you can lose at higher stakes and win at lower stakes (also he may be recording a 2/5[10/20] as $5 BB?) making the graph not entirely representative of his true results.

Anyway this graph is not the graph I expected at all. Where are the extended downswings? Where is the mental anguish, the emotional struggle. It just doesn't compute. Also to have won all this money and then still be near 0 liquid cash having to borrow from friends to be in action and paying a ridiculous monthly nut that is becoming more and more difficult to squeeze out of live poker.. having long drives to casinos on the west coast punting off bullets into lineups that break after it's clear he's come to battle that causes you to stress out even more.. It just seems that however good DGAF plays, he plays really really poorly in other major aspects of his life.

I went pro a few months ago and this thread was instrumental to me for learning pitfalls to avoid. Not so much about the abyss tho. I get variance is glacial in duration and scale. What i'm getting at, and it's hard for anyone to divest yourself away from promoting self-worth and the narrative that you've come to self-describe yourself with, is that for this graph and this thread to be from the same person, many many more mistakes were made than spewing into nits that flopped sets. Money management skills for decreasing your monthly nut and not taking on responsibilities you are unable to reliably support as well as having a clear exit strategy and super strict discipline. That's what I take away from this thread. But the abyss... where was it?
The abyss is the 500+ hour break even streaks that occur every now and again. It looks pretty inconsequential on an 18,000 hour graph but it still feels ****ty when you are living through it and wondering if you will ever pull out.

As for DGAF I've been saying it for years itt, he is terrible at managing money, his lack of net worth, being busto at times, is entirely his fault off the table- and I'm pretty sure he will agree. I've always disagreed with the theme of this thread being about the "bad pros" and the constant doom and gloom, but I still check it out often because DGAF is a great writer and I enjoy his perspective while I disagree on many fundamental views with regard to live poker and being a professional.
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Old 04-14-2018, 12:19 AM   #4308
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Pretty crazy that this is only ~500k hands.
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Old 04-15-2018, 01:19 AM   #4309
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Serious question... are whiners/sore losers good for the game? I’m talking about people who get visibly upset when they lose and constantly complain, making rants like:

-“I never hit my draw, wah wah wah”
-“of course this luckbox gets there against me again. He always does”
-“I run so bad, so sick, so unreal, no one runs as bad as me”

Some look like children denied candy and ready to explode. It can be comical.

I argue this whining/tantrum throwing is good for the game. Sadistic fish feed off of this raw emotion. They even intentionally try to deliver bad beats to create the pain in their whiny opponents.

The pain brings life to an otherwise mundane game.

Is it ok as long as they’re not berating the fish while whining?

To me the whining is annoying af but at least it’s better than the stoicism displayed by seasoned pros who brush off a series of bad beats? Poker is war after all. We want to see blood and tears. Not civilized folks who accept beatings with a pained smile and a fake “nice hand” declaration.

Last edited by NoExit; 04-15-2018 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 04-15-2018, 12:42 PM   #4310
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BERRI SOUR View Post
This graph makes no sense to me given the thread that precedes it.

DGAF spent a significant portion of the thread discussing and warning about the abyss. I understand that it is in BBs not $ won so you can lose at higher stakes and win at lower stakes (also he may be recording a 2/5[10/20] as $5 BB?) making the graph not entirely representative of his true results.

Anyway this graph is not the graph I expected at all. Where are the extended downswings? Where is the mental anguish, the emotional struggle. It just doesn't compute. Also to have won all this money and then still be near 0 liquid cash having to borrow from friends to be in action and paying a ridiculous monthly nut that is becoming more and more difficult to squeeze out of live poker.. having long drives to casinos on the west coast punting off bullets into lineups that break after it's clear he's come to battle that causes you to stress out even more.. It just seems that however good DGAF plays, he plays really really poorly in other major aspects of his life.

I went pro a few months ago and this thread was instrumental to me for learning pitfalls to avoid. Not so much about the abyss tho. I get variance is glacial in duration and scale. What i'm getting at, and it's hard for anyone to divest yourself away from promoting self-worth and the narrative that you've come to self-describe yourself with, is that for this graph and this thread to be from the same person, many many more mistakes were made than spewing into nits that flopped sets. Money management skills for decreasing your monthly nut and not taking on responsibilities you are unable to reliably support as well as having a clear exit strategy and super strict discipline. That's what I take away from this thread. But the abyss... where was it?
Like apology7 said, there are def a few extended downswings in there, but this graph is exactly what this thread is about. Look at the last 2K hours on the graph. Something is much different than it was in the beginning. And I’m going to have trouble believing that someone who’s absolutely crushed for that long forgot how to win. There’s something else happening...
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Old 04-15-2018, 01:28 PM   #4311
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2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoExit View Post
Serious question... are whiners/sore losers good for the game? I’m talking about people who get visibly upset when they lose and constantly complain, making rants like:

-“I never hit my draw, wah wah wah”
-“of course this luckbox gets there against me again. He always does”
-“I run so bad, so sick, so unreal, no one runs as bad as me”

Some look like children denied candy and ready to explode. It can be comical.

I argue this whining/tantrum throwing is good for the game. Sadistic fish feed off of this raw emotion. They even intentionally try to deliver bad beats to create the pain in their whiny opponents.

The pain brings life to an otherwise mundane game.

Is it ok as long as they’re not berating the fish while whining?

To me the whining is annoying af but at least it’s better than the stoicism displayed by seasoned pros who brush off a series of bad beats? Poker is war after all. We want to see blood and tears. Not civilized folks who accept beatings with a pained smile and a fake “nice hand” declaration.


Generally speaking I think most fish and rec players are aware of the fact they are dogs in the game and are sitting at the table for entertainment purposes. beating a “pro” is a challenge/entertaining for them, so I would agree that a whiny reaction from the pro would only fuel the fishes’ drive to keep playing. If they wait all day for that moment and the pro shrugs off a 300bb suckout it probably isn’t as enjoyable for them

That being said, I think fish only want to see that type of reaction out of the backpack hoodie iPad pros, since they are the real enemy in their eyes. I’m friendly enough with rec players and give enough action that if I started whining when I lose 70/30 flip it would be very offputting (since most of the time the flips have gone the other way and fish remember that) because we have a more friendly relationship. so if you’re viewed as “one of the guys” then I would encourage you to keep it light and funny and gambly at all times no matter how bad you’re running. If you’re a backpack nerd perhaps it would be better to let the fish actually see he’s successfully gotten the best of you/got under your skin (but don’t take it too far or make it contentious). Just enough to let them know they’ve won the battle.
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:50 PM   #4312
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoExit View Post
Serious question... are whiners/sore losers good for the game? I’m talking about people who get visibly upset when they lose and constantly complain, making rants like:

-“I never hit my draw, wah wah wah”
-“of course this luckbox gets there against me again. He always does”
-“I run so bad, so sick, so unreal, no one runs as bad as me”

Some look like children denied candy and ready to explode. It can be comical.

I argue this whining/tantrum throwing is good for the game. Sadistic fish feed off of this raw emotion. They even intentionally try to deliver bad beats to create the pain in their whiny opponents.

The pain brings life to an otherwise mundane game.

Is it ok as long as they’re not berating the fish while whining?

To me the whining is annoying af but at least it’s better than the stoicism displayed by seasoned pros who brush off a series of bad beats? Poker is war after all. We want to see blood and tears. Not civilized folks who accept beatings with a pained smile and a fake “nice hand” declaration.
it's generally not good bc usually the people who do this stuff are cry baby nits who think they're good at poker but they're really just passive little bitches who have themselves to blame for their losses.

Nobody wants to hear someone cry at the table- unless of course they're about to start torching stacks.

But the guys who say the quotes you mentioned usually don't torch. they check behind good hands, giving flush draws a free river, then pay off saying "wow eveyrone always hits- good thing i didn't bet i would have lost more!'
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Old 04-15-2018, 07:47 PM   #4313
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
it's generally not good bc usually the people who do this stuff are cry baby nits who think they're good at poker but they're really just passive little bitches who have themselves to blame for their losses.

Nobody wants to hear someone cry at the table- unless of course they're about to start torching stacks.

But the guys who say the quotes you mentioned usually don't torch. they check behind good hands, giving flush draws a free river, then pay off saying "wow eveyrone always hits- good thing i didn't bet i would have lost more!'
Yup, this.

Cry babies, especially when they are grown men, are the worst. Especially when they are passive fish and they berate "the donkey" for calling and chasing. These guys complain about how they need luck to win in this game, but they somehow think they are good. It's a weird thinking process these guys go through. I don't completely understand it, because it's quite illogical.

The ones who cry are usually just slow bleeds. They have short stacks. They think they're good and understand poker, but they have no idea it's not always about the cards. These guys are like level 1.5. They sort of think about opponent's hands, but they mostly care about their own hand. They're like the easiest to play: lay down marginals when they show aggression, bluff them a bunch. They fold way too easily especially OTT and to big bets OTR.
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Old 04-15-2018, 07:58 PM   #4314
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque View Post
Generally speaking I think most fish and rec players are aware of the fact they are dogs in the game and are sitting at the table for entertainment purposes. beating a “pro” is a challenge/entertaining for them, so I would agree that a whiny reaction from the pro would only fuel the fishes’ drive to keep playing. If they wait all day for that moment and the pro shrugs off a 300bb suckout it probably isn’t as enjoyable for them

That being said, I think fish only want to see that type of reaction out of the backpack hoodie iPad pros, since they are the real enemy in their eyes. I’m friendly enough with rec players and give enough action that if I started whining when I lose 70/30 flip it would be very offputting (since most of the time the flips have gone the other way and fish remember that) because we have a more friendly relationship. so if you’re viewed as “one of the guys” then I would encourage you to keep it light and funny and gambly at all times no matter how bad you’re running. If you’re a backpack nerd perhaps it would be better to let the fish actually see he’s successfully gotten the best of you/got under your skin (but don’t take it too far or make it contentious). Just enough to let them know they’ve won the battle.
Very insightful post.

The more a person has this air of superiority/"pro-ness"/arrogance about them, the more everybody wants to see a reaction. But actually, I think, when a true professional takes a bad beat humbly with little emotion shown and maybe with a little "standard" feel, it makes the other rec players really respect the professional and makes them want to gamble with him more. Some recs enjoy having guys who see the game from a high level and don't get emotional as much. It's something a lot of them want to be like. They know you have gamble in you, and they want to play with you more.

RE: When bad players feel like they've won the battle, it just gets them overconfident. Then, boom, they start calling down lighter, making more aggressive bluffs, and they usually end up where they started.
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:29 AM   #4315
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

If complaining bothers you then you should think about quitting poker or playing less. What would you tell a bartender that's tired of dealing with drunks?
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:54 AM   #4316
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I like big blondes and I cannot lie
You other ballers can't deny
When a weak lead lands I make an itty bitty raise
Then I spay my stack in your face
You go broke, want to rebuy though
Cause you just gotta chase that dough
That stroll to the atm is lonely
But your approach to the game too hole-y
Oh playa the game got short now
That backpack and hoodie look dumb-wow
Dgaf.....he tried to warn me
But those fat big blondes make-a me so horny
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:50 AM   #4317
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

So in the giraffe above, does BB stand for Big Blinds or Big Blondes?

Or perhaps is it a merged range?
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Old 04-16-2018, 03:17 PM   #4318
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Where is jlocdog now by the way? Or how about limon? They making any monies? I am, I went on the best run of my life the last three years.
Still here my little trolly friend...glad you been crushing it pal.
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:44 PM   #4319
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit123 View Post
Yup, this.

Cry babies, especially when they are grown men, are the worst. Especially when they are passive fish and they berate "the donkey" for calling and chasing. These guys complain about how they need luck to win in this game, but they somehow think they are good. It's a weird thinking process these guys go through. I don't completely understand it, because it's quite illogical.

The ones who cry are usually just slow bleeds. They have short stacks. They think they're good and understand poker, but they have no idea it's not always about the cards. These guys are like level 1.5. They sort of think about opponent's hands, but they mostly care about their own hand. They're like the easiest to play: lay down marginals when they show aggression, bluff them a bunch. They fold way too easily especially OTT and to big bets OTR.
this is spot on.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:12 PM   #4320
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

DGAF posted about this earlier in the thread, and I've experienced it myself. If you take a bad beat and show no emotion about it, people assume you're good/a pro. Nothing wrong with showing a little bit of frustration (never at the dealer or the other players!). Plus it can get you paid if people think you're tilting and you pick up something good.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:19 PM   #4321
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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These guys complain about how they need luck to win in this game, but they somehow think they are good. It's a weird thinking process these guys go through. I don't completely understand it, because it's quite illogical.
It's entirely illogical but the result of an extremely normal human thought process, as humans are irrational creatures. These two things go hand in hand. People who are convinced they are good at poker but consistently fail to win have to come up with reasons they are losing, and one of those is luck.

Everyone in vulnerable to these thoughts but as far as live poker goes in my experience it tends to be guys who "play by the book" (or so they think, stuff like 3betting a range of exactly AJ+ except they do it from every position vs every position), etc. If they lose a big pot it may never cross their mind that it's actually their fault for stacking off 100bb in a spot where villain is never bluffing, they just think "oh well I played fine villain is a lucky fish and I didn't expect him to have 63o in his range" and ignore the fact they could have 66 or 33 anyways.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:33 PM   #4322
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

While not always an option, reacting the same way villain in the hand would if the positions were reversed is a good one when it's available. Most people react the way that they think is appropriate- maybe they imitate their favorite ESPN pro, maybe they (subconsciously) imitate what they observed the first few times they played live poker, maybe they hide their frustration and say "nice hand" the same way they said "good game" throughout all the intramural sports they played, etc.

But for the most part, while it's important to do some non-zero amount of conforming to the atmosphere around you, I'd just advocate being yourself. I think live poker becomes way too hard if you have to wear a mask all the time.
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:35 PM   #4323
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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While not always an option, reacting the same way villain in the hand would if the positions were reversed is a good one when it's available. Most people react the way that they think is appropriate- maybe they imitate their favorite ESPN pro, maybe they (subconsciously) imitate what they observed the first few times they played live poker, maybe they hide their frustration and say "nice hand" the same way they said "good game" throughout all the intramural sports they played, etc.

But for the most part, while it's important to do some non-zero amount of conforming to the atmosphere around you, I'd just advocate being yourself. I think live poker becomes way too hard if you have to wear a mask all the time.
This is spot on. It takes incredible mental/emotional energy to wear a mask. It doesn't feel good at a core level. If I do it for too long, I get this "wow, I'm so fake and I can't believe I'm doing this for some dollars" feel.

Nowadays, I'm quiet when I want to be, I chat when I want to, I read my phone for 10-15 minutes when I want to (no headphones/sunglasses though, cause that's REALLY bad for the game). I don't try to be nice to certain people I really feel disgust for (nit-grinders, sunglasses/headphone peeps, people with bad etiquette [no matter how much money they spew], or mean/cruel people).
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:46 PM   #4324
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by cuserounder View Post


DGAF is in Wilt Chamberlain territory here...
Thanks for doing this man. I've never made a graph before. I've always looked at my spreadsheet during downswings, but this will be even more settling.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:50 PM   #4325
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Damn seems like a pretty rough last year. That year from 8000 to 10,000hrs must have been fun though. haha
This last year was the toughest year of my life in many ways. **** 2017- I won't miss it. The 8k-10k hours year was the year I didn't drink .
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