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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 03-11-2018, 04:45 AM   #4076
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
i think smart doctors etc like the challenge of full ring poker bc it's them vs pros at high stakes games and these pros play way more than them, study more etc so yes while you're right about variance it's still a fun challenge to them to try and beat these people.yes you're right hu is a better challenge but playing 8 pros is still a challenge. i'd love to pitch to mike trout but it would still be fun to pitch to a good minor league hitter.

and you're right about variance-most players in live games drastically understimate it. especially those running hotter than the sun.
survivorship bias means a lot of people playing higher games right now (especially those who weren't around during the boom when everyone was awful) who worked there way up through poker have run well when it counted.

with all of that said- i love variance. if it wasn't for variance casinos and poker would not exist and i would have to get a ****ing job. and i'm not cut out for the working world.i will never say a bad thing about variance. and i will run it once until i die (unless people pay me to run it twice ) and put my faith in the poker gods to both give me the pot as well as tilt the **** out of my mentally weak cry baby opponents.

also when running bad just remember you just lost x thousands of dollars playing a stupid card game. think how lucky you are to be able to do that! there are people in this world without healthy food or water, basic medicne, kids who get brain cancer, people who are literally still slaves in 2018 and i'm not exagerating. forget poker variance- do you realize how fortunate and lucky you are to be able to risk stupid money at a stupid game?

realize what an advantage it is not to tilt and to handle losing well. you mention smaller edges variance etc- well who cares about some debate on how to play some close marginal hand in the 3 bet pot that will lead to a 3 page thread basically arguing over 93 cents in ev.marginal decisions on poker hands is a rounding error in comparison to emotional control and being strong mentally in poker. like big deal someone can play ace 8 suited in the cutoff vs a mid position open at a tight table better thanme. how does that ****er play when he loses 5 flips in a row? how well does he play when he gets sucked out on for a month.i hope he enjoys his 93 cents as he's tilting his balls off.
Solid post.

Zero doubt in my mind more than 7 of my 8 opponents on average have run above expectation, and all of my pro opponents have run well above expectation- every time I play. Survivorship bias + the human brain needing a reason for everything ("everything happens for a reason") + live poker just being a super slow-mo mind warp = just about everyone is greatly misguided when it comes to understanding variance.

I respect variance greatly and I accept that it is a necessary evil. I don't love it though. It's unsettling. It's brain-tricking/almost a conspiracy imo. And it's a ton more influential nowadays than it used to be (when you could just run games over/you didn't need to show up with the best hand). If you run bad, you are dead no matter what these days. And running even is worth a lot less than it used to be as well obv.

Great point on people lacking perspective. As much as I believe in the theory of relativity when it comes to human experiences, I always know when I am breaking chips under the table or screaming "****!" in my car after felting ANOTHER 90/10 I'm really being a big baby who lost track of the fact that in the grand scheme of things he has it amazing.

The 93 cent bit is great too.

Spoiler:
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Old 03-11-2018, 04:48 AM   #4077
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Lol @ discussing strategy in the most anti strategy thread on 2+2...let's not disrespect the legend that is DGAF and talk about why kids bets 1/4th pot these days ..answer is obvious anyway..coz someone told them to. There are very few players coming up with their own unique strategy these days. (Shout out to my boy berkey)
+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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Old 03-11-2018, 04:55 AM   #4078
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Ideas for deflecting a situation where dealers are joking around with players about how much a whale has run up today/how much she's been spewing lately/whether she's leaving or coloring up when she grabs racks/how everyone at this table (a must move game) is dying to get over there before she leaves/reg on main game texting reg friend on must move game about hands she's played and reg on must move game announcing it to the table and everyone laughing about it/reg talking about how it's good when bad players like that cash out big from time to time "so they think that they have a chance"/all this even when there's a few guys at the table who are likely down a few hundred $K lifetime at poker?
I can't tell you how to do it without being there (or how necessary it is), but I could/would do it if you put me in that spot. Another super grey area. Always protect the whales (obv), but don't alienate the fish talking **** about the whales.

Pros and dealers gonna get some venom though most likely.
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Old 03-11-2018, 04:59 AM   #4079
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
I can't imagine this ever working.

How about instead, nicely tell them that while you know they were just joking around and meant no harm,what they're saying is extremely harmful to the game and to please not do it ever again.

As much as I'd also be tempted to berate them for saying such idiotic things, it's simply going to be much less effective at getting our intended result. The result is more important than our ego (otherwise we're no better then the retards explaining to fish how bad their play is)

Attract more bees with honey.
I am all for tipping for performance (not just in poker). Over tip like hell for good service, airball entitled non-performers. It's uncomfortable (for a while), but the alternative is just passive, enabling, "let's let the world suck without ever even trying to affect it positively" weaksauce imo.
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Old 03-11-2018, 05:10 AM   #4080
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Actually, it is questionable whether this conversation is that negative for the game. In my experience several of the whales I play(ed) with semi-regularly really enjoy the attention, it is part of the fun for them and feeds into their feeling of overall superiority (in a look at how I am double straddling to 20 and raising to 100 blind or look at how I am calling a shortstack shove with any two cauz I just don't give a **** about those measly couple of bucks kinda way).
It's negative. It's whale-shaming. It's just as illogical as slut-shaming (if you like to get laid). The players in ear shot are all going to try harder than normal when that conversation is going on- and after. And when the whale eventually hears it/finds out about it, that is the apocalypse.

If whales like the shaming (some really do), do it to their face. I do this with a handful of them (i.e. after my boy ____ bluffs off a ton to some unknown in seat 6, "...Seat 6, welcome to ____'s Black Chip Giveaway, a promotion run by the Venetian on the first Thursday of every month"). It's actually great for the vibe- if the whale is a sicko (as many are). Usually you gotta earn the right to talk **** though by running like garbage to them in huge pots/loaning/getting drunk with them/actually being their real (not fake) acquaintance/etc. And ofc be ready to take it the moment you **** up/get stacked.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:47 AM   #4081
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
I am all for tipping for performance (not just in poker). Over tip like hell for good service, airball entitled non-performers. It's uncomfortable (for a while), but the alternative is just passive, enabling, "let's let the world suck without ever even trying to affect it positively" weaksauce imo.
This post just reminded me.. DGAF, have you ever watched Dr. Petersons lectures on youtube? He's all about responsibility and how each and every one of us has a lot more power and potential than we think and how we can move the world closer to hell or heaven (metaphorically). I'd appreciate a quick answer but let's not talk about it too much here because that would derail the thread, given how intense emotions Petersons thought awakens in many people. He certainly has influenced me in a huge way to become a better, upright person. Also, just wanted to thank you again for this fantastic thread, I check back here regularly to see if you have posted anything new. The way you weave different ideas from different levels of analysis together coherently is quite fascinating.
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Old 03-12-2018, 09:17 AM   #4082
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
It's negative. It's whale-shaming. It's just as illogical as slut-shaming (if you like to get laid). The players in ear shot are all going to try harder than normal when that conversation is going on- and after. And when the whale eventually hears it/finds out about it, that is the apocalypse.

If whales like the shaming (some really do), do it to their face. I do this with a handful of them (i.e. after my boy ____ bluffs off a ton to some unknown in seat 6, "...Seat 6, welcome to ____'s Black Chip Giveaway, a promotion run by the Venetian on the first Thursday of every month"). It's actually great for the vibe- if the whale is a sicko (as many are). Usually you gotta earn the right to talk **** though by running like garbage to them in huge pots/loaning/getting drunk with them/actually being their real (not fake) acquaintance/etc. And ofc be ready to take it the moment you **** up/get stacked.
+1

What you're talking about here and what was happening in the other post are so different though that it's obv that one is bad and one is good. Jokingly needling between friends (or atleast ppl that know and respect each other) is great for the environment imo and even makes it easier for the guy who just punted or got whacked or whatever, because the guy who needles him basically lightens the mood and effectively says "we're not going to take this moment too seriously, we're just having fun here." But there is definitely a fine line, because if you don't know the person, or atleast have some good vibes/conversation going, or if your comments are not taken as a joke, that's the type of **** that can get the guy to rack up or just straight up kill the game.
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Old 03-12-2018, 03:07 PM   #4083
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Right. That was in poor taste to place that there - my b!

DGAF - do you play in any organized games nowadays? Good 'ole whale fests with a few pros sprinkled in there?
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:16 PM   #4084
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
It's negative. It's whale-shaming. It's just as illogical as slut-shaming (if you like to get laid). The players in ear shot are all going to try harder than normal when that conversation is going on- and after. And when the whale eventually hears it/finds out about it, that is the apocalypse.

If whales like the shaming (some really do), do it to their face. I do this with a handful of them (i.e. after my boy ____ bluffs off a ton to some unknown in seat 6, "...Seat 6, welcome to ____'s Black Chip Giveaway, a promotion run by the Venetian on the first Thursday of every month"). It's actually great for the vibe- if the whale is a sicko (as many are). Usually you gotta earn the right to talk **** though by running like garbage to them in huge pots/loaning/getting drunk with them/actually being their real (not fake) acquaintance/etc. And ofc be ready to take it the moment you **** up/get stacked.

I cannot agree more about trash talking a whale to his face (that is, of course, if he doesn’t mind/enjoys it/gives it back). Not only does it improve the condition of the table, it also can be very endearing to that whale (I actually hate the term “whale” but I can’t offer a brief alternative) who is almost definitely just there to blow off steam or whatever. Friendly banter is one of the healthiest supplements to a poker game ime. Talking trash behind a whale’s back is absolutely unacceptable and should be stimied with extreme prejudice.

There used to be a guy who frequented a local card room near me. He is very successful (like 8 figures, mostly self made), and just loves mixing it up for trivial (to him) money. He’s got a great personality, tips well, and even helped a couple of others around that game find work. Just a top notch guy. He lost heaps in the games with a smile on his face. That was, until some dip**** all stars started whispering about how awful he was, how much he lost, how lol retarded he was. Well obviously the guy ended up catching wind of the bs and quit coming around. He was losing 30bb/hr or more (seriously) and playing a minimum of 8 hours about 4 times a week, and these dumbass, sunglass wearing, strat talking losers ran him off. They also ran off a great guy who made the room a warmer environment for all. I’ll never understand it.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:40 PM   #4085
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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This post just reminded me.. DGAF, have you ever watched Dr. Petersons lectures on youtube? He's all about responsibility and how each and every one of us has a lot more power and potential than we think and how we can move the world closer to hell or heaven (metaphorically). I'd appreciate a quick answer but let's not talk about it too much here because that would derail the thread, given how intense emotions Petersons thought awakens in many people. He certainly has influenced me in a huge way to become a better, upright person. Also, just wanted to thank you again for this fantastic thread, I check back here regularly to see if you have posted anything new. The way you weave different ideas from different levels of analysis together coherently is quite fascinating.
Thanks man. You are key component to this thread. I really dig and respect the approach to life you convey in your posts. I imagine many others do as well.

I haven't heard of Dr. Peterson but I'm all about responsibility and accountability. Easier said than done obv, but places of solidarity--like this thread and hopefully my blog and business ventures--are potentially extremely powerful imo.

Keep posting. Keep doing you.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:42 PM   #4086
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Yesterday in a game, the merits of 2/5/10 versus 5/10 came up, at a table of 2/5/10. I like 2/5/10, so I said something to the effect of "2/5/10 is great because you get people who normally play 2/5 to come play it, plus the backpack wearing regulars who 3bet every other hand and never say a word don't come play as much.

With two backpack wearing, 3betting every hand regs were at the table. Who I then needled about their backpacks.

Out of line?




ps I totally get the 3betting can be more EV then flatting in a bunch of spots, especially vs other regulars. But lots of fish hate heavy 3betting because they love flops. So when it is marginal, just cut that **** out.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:49 PM   #4087
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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+1

What you're talking about here and what was happening in the other post are so different though that it's obv that one is bad and one is good. Jokingly needling between friends (or atleast ppl that know and respect each other) is great for the environment imo and even makes it easier for the guy who just punted or got whacked or whatever, because the guy who needles him basically lightens the mood and effectively says "we're not going to take this moment too seriously, we're just having fun here." But there is definitely a fine line, because if you don't know the person, or atleast have some good vibes/conversation going, or if your comments are not taken as a joke, that's the type of **** that can get the guy to rack up or just straight up kill the game.
Yeah, you need a reasonably high social IQ. And obv it's amazing for the game to make fun of all good players when they do stuff that is either bad or appears bad to the untrained eye. It takes the lid off the game, making competing hard while having a good time the MO- and that's the way it should be.

Everyone is obv insanely results oriented so making fun of whoever runs bad is guaranteed to work.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:53 PM   #4088
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Right. That was in poor taste to place that there - my b!

DGAF - do you play in any organized games nowadays? Good 'ole whale fests with a few pros sprinkled in there?
Nah but I'm down for an invite!

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Old 03-13-2018, 04:54 PM   #4089
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I cannot agree more about trash talking a whale to his face (that is, of course, if he doesn’t mind/enjoys it/gives it back). Not only does it improve the condition of the table, it also can be very endearing to that whale (I actually hate the term “whale” but I can’t offer a brief alternative) who is almost definitely just there to blow off steam or whatever. Friendly banter is one of the healthiest supplements to a poker game ime. Talking trash behind a whale’s back is absolutely unacceptable and should be stimied with extreme prejudice.

There used to be a guy who frequented a local card room near me. He is very successful (like 8 figures, mostly self made), and just loves mixing it up for trivial (to him) money. He’s got a great personality, tips well, and even helped a couple of others around that game find work. Just a top notch guy. He lost heaps in the games with a smile on his face. That was, until some dip**** all stars started whispering about how awful he was, how much he lost, how lol retarded he was. Well obviously the guy ended up catching wind of the bs and quit coming around. He was losing 30bb/hr or more (seriously) and playing a minimum of 8 hours about 4 times a week, and these dumbass, sunglass wearing, strat talking losers ran him off. They also ran off a great guy who made the room a warmer environment for all. I’ll never understand it.
"Dumb nerds"

Unable to see the forest, unable to think outside of a vacuum, etc.
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:01 PM   #4090
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by Ranma4703 View Post
Yesterday in a game, the merits of 2/5/10 versus 5/10 came up, at a table of 2/5/10. I like 2/5/10, so I said something to the effect of "2/5/10 is great because you get people who normally play 2/5 to come play it, plus the backpack wearing regulars who 3bet every other hand and never say a word don't come play as much.

With two backpack wearing, 3betting every hand regs were at the table. Who I then needled about their backpacks.

Out of line?




ps I totally get the 3betting can be more EV then flatting in a bunch of spots, especially vs other regulars. But lots of fish hate heavy 3betting because they love flops. So when it is marginal, just cut that **** out.
Nah, you wear a backpack and you ask to be needled. I like to ask what school they go to, or I'll just say "UNLV?" or whatever.

2-5-10 is way better than 5-10 for a myriad of reasons- unless you can turn the 5-10 into 5-10-20. And 3betting that knocks out whales is typically counterintuitive, as is doing anything a that might irritate a whale (like 3betting his opens too much).
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:14 PM   #4091
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Final whale note for the day: A lot of whales are the worst of the worst of people away from the table<-- are the ones that like to be shamed imo. Real, genuine sickos. God bless their souls.
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:09 AM   #4092
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2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Where do you guys see poker 5-10 years from now? Are regs vanishing from your games too?
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:40 PM   #4093
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Where do you guys see poker 5-10 years from now? Are regs vanishing from your games too?
At my local 5/10, some regs and grinders have reduced the hours they put in or stopped playing altogether due to games often being garbage. The die-hard grinders remain and most of the time every game has at least 4 of them on it. Sometimes it's 7 grinders with 1 fish and 1 semi-fish. When a table is all grinders with no real fish, the game tends to just break. The die-hard grinders will casino hop in search of fish. The less dedicated grinders will just go home and be less motivated to come back the next day.

Even the recs and fish have tightened up a lot. When they see that no one else is gambling it up they tighten up too, or they leave. I'd say in 2018 at my local casino, 50% of the time the game is garbage (grinder infested), 35% of the time playable but not good, 15% of the time good. The 15% is often short lived though. Once the fish bust it's back to garbage games.

Most of the whales have disappeared. I think they all got cleaned out quickly sitting in grinder infested games and realized poker isn't fun anymore.

The days of printing money are probably never to return, unless there is another poker boom to bring in a HUGE wave of new, terrible players with money to burn. Currently, the occasional new terrible player that get into poker go broke/lose interest quickly due to games being garbage, so a HUGE wave is needed for the new bad players to stand a chance playing against other new bad players.

I think in 5-10 years the games will be slightly better. There should be fewer nits and grinders due to games not being as profitable as they used to be. But overall, the average player will be more competent due to all the educational material out there. Games will be softer than now, but not as juicy as they were before 2012-ish. Of course, there will be new poker ecosystems such as when an area open up a new casino, but like always those ecosystems will dry up over time due to overfishing.

Last edited by NoExit; 03-14-2018 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:09 PM   #4094
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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The days of printing money are probably never to return, unless there is another poker boom to bring in a HUGE wave of new, terrible players with money to burn. Currently, the occasional new terrible player that get into poker go broke/lose interest quickly due to games being garbage, so a HUGE wave is needed for the new bad players to stand a chance playing against other new bad players.
I think for the most part this is true wrt to NLHE. Bad players just don't stand a chance deep-stacked vs pro's and the game has been largely figured out, so whales go broke v quickly.

The next big wave would have to be a game where the edges are not as apparent and the whales can still win from time to time, such as PLO or shortdeck holdem. idk if NLHE will ever be able to resurface.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:54 PM   #4095
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I think for the most part this is true wrt to NLHE. Bad players just don't stand a chance deep-stacked vs pro's and the game has been largely figured out, so whales go broke v quickly.

The next big wave would have to be a game where the edges are not as apparent and the whales can still win from time to time, such as PLO or shortdeck holdem. idk if NLHE will ever be able to resurface.
I *thought* this was true.

But then the last 6 months happened. Games here are 5+ players to a flop, every flop, 300 - 1000BB deep. It is, in a word, bizarre.
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Old 03-14-2018, 11:40 PM   #4096
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Solid post.

Zero doubt in my mind more than 7 of my 8 opponents on average have run above expectation, and all of my pro opponents have run well above expectation- every time I play. Survivorship bias + the human brain needing a reason for everything ("everything happens for a reason") + live poker just being a super slow-mo mind warp = just about everyone is greatly misguided when it comes to understanding variance.

I respect variance greatly and I accept that it is a necessary evil. I don't love it though. It's unsettling. It's brain-tricking/almost a conspiracy imo. And it's a ton more influential nowadays than it used to be (when you could just run games over/you didn't need to show up with the best hand). If you run bad, you are dead no matter what these days. And running even is worth a lot less than it used to be as well obv.

Great point on people lacking perspective. As much as I believe in the theory of relativity when it comes to human experiences, I always know when I am breaking chips under the table or screaming "****!" in my car after felting ANOTHER 90/10 I'm really being a big baby who lost track of the fact that in the grand scheme of things he has it amazing.

The 93 cent bit is great too.

Spoiler:
as for the spoiler- in plo they mostly seem to not care either way or to prefer once.
i played with one last year who liked twice and asked me to run it with him so i would puke in my mouth and agree to keep him happy.
at least that puke taste was made up for when regs/nits didn't get the same courtesy with me and they would cry about it.

"but you just ran it twice with (whale name)"

ok play like him and then we can run it.
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Old 03-14-2018, 11:44 PM   #4097
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Nah, you wear a backpack and you ask to be needled. I like to ask what school they go to, or I'll just say "UNLV?" or whatever.

2-5-10 is way better than 5-10 for a myriad of reasons- unless you can turn the 5-10 into 5-10-20. And 3betting that knocks out whales is typically counterintuitive, as is doing anything a that might irritate a whale (like 3betting his opens too much).
gotta love the dumb regs who get into 3 betting wars in nl with the only two table whales in the blinds who play 90 pct of their hands pre for a standard open but fold most of their hands to a cold 3 bet

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Old 03-14-2018, 11:51 PM   #4098
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by diskoteque View Post
Where do you guys see poker 5-10 years from now? Are regs vanishing from your games too?
poker is ever evolving. there will always be good live games.

up until 2-3 years ago i went to vegas a lot more than i do now bc i thought the 5/10 nl games were a lot better there than the east coast 5/10 nl and the 2/5/10 plo at aria was great. i was still playing about 50 pct nl 50 pct plo.

I just checked my records and this year i have 342 hours plo 7 hours nl lol.

These days in my opinion the east coast plo games are way better, the 5/10 nl at aria and bellagio blows.

I also want to learn mix games.I've seen some mixed game lineups lately with games i don't even know the rules to but the lineups look incredible.

What sucks is they're mostly at 80/160 or 150/300 stakes. I don't mind losing some money while learning but wish i could play them at lower stakes while i learn.

It's great to be able to be able to play all different games and then you can always try and play the best game in the house.

For me it also helps alleviate boredome. I still enjoy plo- i hate nl.
But even though I enjoy plo I enjoy it less than I used to as it's not new anymore, and while i still try and improve (and hopefully am) you improve so much slower at a game once you're at least decent at it. It's a lot of fun for me going from learning a game to massively improving which i want to do with the mix games.

In poker old opportuntities will always dry up - but new ones will also pop up.
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:10 AM   #4099
jrr63
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

IMO that is one key to longevity in poker - play the best game in the house no matter what it is. I played in a lot of hose/horse type mixed games on the east coast before NL came back into fashion. But now I'm out of date - I'm probably still at least ok in the old games - stud, o-8, stud-8 - but I've never played the newer draw games. And the only mixed games with those draw games within a 2hour distance are a 40-80 and a 75-150 that runs on weekends. Could burn up a lot of money getting up to speed Does not seem worth it as long as there's still money to be made in big bet games, but that may not last forever.
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:22 AM   #4100
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrr63 View Post
IMO that is one key to longevity in poker - play the best game in the house no matter what it is. I played in a lot of hose/horse type mixed games on the east coast before NL came back into fashion. But now I'm out of date - I'm probably still at least ok in the old games - stud, o-8, stud-8 - but I've never played the newer draw games. And the only mixed games with those draw games within a 2hour distance are a 40-80 and a 75-150 that runs on weekends. Could burn up a lot of money getting up to speed Does not seem worth it as long as there's still money to be made in big bet games, but that may not last forever.
i have no idea how to play any kind of stud game
i can play razz and limit omaha hi low at least decently but i've seen some amazing lineups with stud variations as well as all the crazy badacy baducy type games
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