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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old Yesterday, 05:28 AM   #3876
cuserounder
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I think the far bigger issue than coaching and training sites is the constant strategy talk at the table using the latest, coolest words. You can't go three hands these days without hearing 3bet this, merge that, he's capped, that was balanced, she defends her BB at a wide frequency.

Polk turning a 3bb/hr winner into a 5bb/hr winner or a 10bb/hr winner into a 12bb/hr winner is, in the grand scheme of things, a minor problem. The 5bb/hr winner using those words for validation, and thus educating the whale to the fact that the strategy of the game goes beyond whatever level they are thinking on is a horrible problem.

The other day I was playing with someone who had a blatant repeat sizing tell. A young, know it all wizard heroed them off as a result. But the money wasn't enough, he had to brag about it at the table. Now the fish plugged a massive leak. But, hey, now all of his fake friends know how awesome he is at poker.

Someone else taught the biggest whale the value of position... at the table... to show off, or something.

That's violating the most basic code of poker, it's absurdly stupid, and it happens allllll the time.

If people would just stop doing all that stuff - strat talk, berating, bragging, discussing hourlies (I swear to God I hope you're reading this dude who constantly brags about what his session hourly was the last time he played, STFU), discussing how much the whale dumped loudly at the table, straddle freerolling, whale straddle blocking, seat hopping, etc etc... We could easily fade the damage the training sites do in my opinion...

Cause, at the end of the day a lot more people THINK Upswing/RIO/CardRunners/CLP/Deuces Cracked made them the best ever, and thus move up and/or create other leaks as a result, than the number of people who start destroying the games. Plus, at the end of the day, you still have to have the mentality to survive a 500+ hour downswing, to avoid spewing due to tilt, to learn how to adjust to different games, etc. Most people just aren't cut out for that ****.

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Old Yesterday, 05:54 AM   #3877
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

To be clear, training sites are bad for the game, but I think they're far from the biggest issue. Plus there's nothing we can do about it.

A lot of those things - training sites, coaching (and I've done a little - mostly for 1/3 players looking to move up, which I would defend - ultimately it stopped being worthwhile for me pretty quickly), stables, books, etc, I wouldn't call immoral or in violation of a code. They're bad for the game overall but some of them are also necessary/good in small quantities. We'd all gladly see a total novice taught basic strategy, thus adding new players to the player pool, right?

Whether we like it or not, find it immoral or not, training sites and stables are going nowhere. Other areas we can potentially get people to improve in. Thus it seems way more productive to focus on those.
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Old Yesterday, 10:40 AM   #3878
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

players that berate the whales and try to embarrass them for how poorly they're playing are worse than the coaching sites and strategy table talkers
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Old Yesterday, 02:30 PM   #3879
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by caitlyn View Post
As far as the education - and that is without a doubt the main driver behind games getting tougher every year - DGAF got one thing correct in the whole ****ing thread - it's nice to see someone finally acknowledge that it's not going away and DGAF whining about it cause he can't hack it anymore won't do a thing.

In general, all of DGAF's efforts to "make games great again" are futile. The cause is the education. It's a structural change. And playing clown to the fish won't make a dent vs education making the games tougher every year. It's a desperate, futile attempt of a player who can no longer beat the games to stay in business.

And of course, as we now know that attempt has failed.
You are really bringing the heat in this thread. I like it.

I would add that there are still some amazing games. I know the Jean Robert Bellande game at Aria is supposed to be super soft. I think mixed games are still easy?

So there is still probably some value in "playing clown to the fish", but it's also ambiguous to me what that actually entails in 2018, and if you can't get into good games its probably worth asking yourself whether this is something you should work on, too.
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Old Yesterday, 04:41 PM   #3880
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I didn't see caitlyns post before it was removed - I assume it was in response to mine.

"Playing clown to the fish," is a stupid phrase. Nobody who gets it would use it. Is it "playing clown" to have a human conversation? To talk to a guy about his family/travels/sports/whatever? To not break down the equity and ranges of the last hand AT THE TABLE? To not make it clear half the table are pros?

Lots of the beneficiaries to training sites are still robots anyway, which makes it relatively easy for a crusher to adjust to them.

But short of duct taping their mouths shut, you can't stop them from being complete clowns discussing strategy. It's a total lack of understanding of how the poker economy works.
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Old Yesterday, 04:47 PM   #3881
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Also, the idea that trying to be friendly to the rec players is a "desperate, futile attempt," to be able to beat the games shows a total lack of comprehension of poker.

Six online training site robots show up each day and play with three fish. They win an average of 7bb/hr. They aren't friendly (or according to caitlyn, desperate and futile), and drive the fish away. Now they make an average of -1bb/hr as they pay rake in a zero sum game with no fish. But at least they aren't desperate or futile!
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Old Yesterday, 05:24 PM   #3882
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

There is no moral high ground for pros who claim they entertain the fish. If anything such pros are more vulturuous than the inexperienced pro who discusses strategy.

Rec fish makes a bad call and asks his neighbor what he should have done. Vulturuous live pro says "it's a tough spot, I don't know what I would do there"
Inexperienced pro says "he is underbuffing in that spot, I would have asked myself how many better hands I can have and probably folded"

Who do you think actually helped out the Rec fish? Discussing strategy at the table is bad for the pros but good for the recs and has overall neutral impact on society.

I agree that strategy shouldn't be discussed at the table. But it's because I am a selfish greedy ahole.

It seems a lot of new winning players simply don't think of poker as a cut throat antagonistic game where information is protected to ruthlessly exploit and fleece unskilled players. If anything, the new players are making poker great again, from a moral standpoint. Even if less profitable.
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Old Today, 01:26 AM   #3883
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

this is such a pointless discussion.


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Old Today, 03:47 AM   #3884
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by iamallin View Post
There is no moral high ground for pros who claim they entertain the fish. If anything such pros are more vulturuous than the inexperienced pro who discusses strategy.
That's absurd. Being friendly and making the game more fun for everyone is not vulturous. It's also giving the rec players something they're looking for and willing to spend money on: fun/recreation.

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Originally Posted by iamallin View Post
Rec fish makes a bad call and asks his neighbor what he should have done. Vulturuous live pro says "it's a tough spot, I don't know what I would do there"
Inexperienced pro says "he is underbuffing in that spot, I would have asked myself how many better hands I can have and probably folded"
Live pro who gets it evaluates the situation. If the rec player is too smart to just say, "Boy, I dunno, that's tough," he gives him some very basic advice without using words/phrases like "underbluffing" or "how many better hands can I have?" That stuff a) clues them in to how far behind they are in skill and b) is almost useless anyway, and may make them feel bad.

Instead, if the live pro evaluates that the rec player will recognize and resent any patronizing non-answer, the live pro says something like, "Well, you know, it could go either way... I kinda put him on top pair there so I would have folded, but he could have missed the straight draw too, so don't beat yourself up.

Here's an actual real life example. I had a whale come up to me after a session and ask me for some advice. He views poker as a fun game that's challenging and he's competitive and wants to get better. He knows I'm a pro, and he knows I know some of his weaknesses because he tells me how badly I beat up on him at the table. He's very new to the game... So I pulled him aside and quietly told him, "The simplest advice I can give you is to call less and bet or raise more. Play less hands and play them more aggressively."

It was REALLY good advice for him, but I also knew he wouldn't adjust his game THAT much, while it would make him more likely to come back and play and not feel disrespected by a brush off. If he goes from playing like 90/10 to playing like 70/20, but continues to enjoy getting better and thus plays more, that's a good trade off IMO.

The issue isn't NEVER talking strategy, it's never talking pro-ey strategy with pros and never using high level terms that rec fish have never heard... it's not tapping the glass for no reason.

Listen to how they talk about hands, and talk about them that way. If you MUST discuss poker with a fellow winning reg at the table, don't say, "Joey opened the hijack to 40, and I 3bet him to 120 from the button with 75 suited. I like to use that hand to balance my 3bet range with a few bluffs that can flop decent equity to barrel with. Flop was A86 rainbow, he check-called 140. Turn is a 4, he checks. I ranged him at mostly A9+ 99-JJ and some pair+draw hands... etc"

Instead, say, "Joey raised, and I came over the top on the button with 75 suited. I flopped an open ender, and there was an ace out there... No flush draws, though. I made it like 140 or 150, and he called. I turned my straight, and I put him on like Ace-King or Ace-Queen, so I kept betting..."

Like, you're still bad for the game and all that, but at least you're down to like a 6/10 on the bad scale instead of a 12.

The same applies to funny poker stories (good for the game), bad beat stories (kill us all now but I know some of you guys are gonna tell them, at least make them funny), and all that stuff. Tell them with regular people poker terms, not pro terms. You'll get more laughs, anyway.
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Old Today, 04:46 AM   #3885
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

If someone loves poker enough to try to improve, then I think you should help them as much as possible. I genuinely try to give people the best advice I can whenever they ask so that they can grow and become more successful. I would've appreciated the help when I first started out playing poker.

The default advice is to tell people to play fewer hands while explaining that most winning players don't limp very much and when they enter the pot it's usually for a raise or a 3bet. I try to point them towards the upswing poker or jlitt hand charts that are free to give them an idea of how strong hands need to be to play 9 handed poker.

I don't study the game as much as you pros and my advice will never be as good so I doubt my strat talk hurts the ecosystem too too much. Personally, I don't find the Doug Polk range partitioning discussion to be terribly scary. that said, I haven't heard about anyone talk about actual solver results in live poker yet (except danmer in his HU with polk if that counts). if someone actually solved some spots that got encountered at a table, I wish they would speak up .
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Old Today, 07:55 AM   #3886
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

That's a good response curserounder. Touches on the balance between being genuinely friendly yet maintaining an edge against recreational players. Thanks.
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Old Today, 11:14 AM   #3887
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

As someone who used to study a lot and play a ton of hours, now just plays for fun on occasion- I have noticed the games to be a lot less friendly in terms of friendly banter. The game just isn’t as fun win or lose for me because of the new crop of know it all silent, wont move an inch young guns.

I rarely have the urge to play anymore because there are more enjoyable ways to spend the little free time I have.

I have to assume others in my position feel the same. At this stage in my life I am no longer playing / thinking I will crush the biggest game in the room. I doubt I am even a small favorite in most 5/10 or 10/25 lineups anymore. I would play more if the game was still fun - this isn’t a win or lose thing.


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Old Today, 03:43 PM   #3888
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miamicheats View Post
As someone who used to study a lot and play a ton of hours, now just plays for fun on occasion- I have noticed the games to be a lot less friendly in terms of friendly banter. The game just isn’t as fun win or lose for me because of the new crop of know it all silent, wont move an inch young guns.

I rarely have the urge to play anymore because there are more enjoyable ways to spend the little free time I have.

I have to assume others in my position feel the same. At this stage in my life I am no longer playing / thinking I will crush the biggest game in the room. I doubt I am even a small favorite in most 5/10 or 10/25 lineups anymore. I would play more if the game was still fun - this isn’t a win or lose thing.


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Play mixed games. Games are friendly and the pros that play them are consumate professionals/ deserve every $ they win.
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Old Today, 04:07 PM   #3889
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Play mixed games. Games are friendly and the pros that play them are consumate professionals/ deserve every $ they win.
Still run into plenty of crap people playing mixed games but games are definitely friendlier on avg and fixed betting structure allows for a less intense game. At 29 though I still find myself always one of the younger people at the table. I did play a 100/200 mix at aria during wsop that was 90% younger guys but vast majority of the time there's mostly 40+ it seems. Not that that's a negative thing, but i've definitely felt it a little harder to strike up a convo at the table sometimes because of it.
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Old Today, 06:26 PM   #3890
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by iamallin View Post
There is no moral high ground for pros who claim they entertain the fish. If anything such pros are more vulturuous than the inexperienced pro who discusses strategy.

Rec fish makes a bad call and asks his neighbor what he should have done. Vulturuous live pro says "it's a tough spot, I don't know what I would do there"
Inexperienced pro says "he is underbuffing in that spot, I would have asked myself how many better hands I can have and probably folded"
Did you know there are professional poker players who are actually worthwhile human beings that are capable of functioning outside of the casino environment and that recreational players actually respect them? Sometimes recreational players and professional players can forge relationships that don't revolve around sitting at a poker table and do things like golf together, meet up for drinks, have their families get together for dinner, just talk on the phone about life (with both parties actually caring what the other has to say), etc.

Not every professional player is some sociopathic and/or autistic vulture that either blows smoke up the ass of recreational players and offers fake sympathy when the recreational player loses some hand they never should've been involved in or so insecure that they feel the need to explain why they are supposed to win and the recreational player is supposed to lose. Sometimes professionals just sit there and play their game and treat the other players at the table like their peers regardless of how it is that the other players earned the money to sit at the table.

That said, I mostly only see this decent human behavior in mixed games and highish stakes big bet games. Professional players in small/medium stakes games of any variety are mostly rotten predators (aside from a small handful who are likely to have a future in bigger games, or have moved down from bigger games). Maybe because they suck at their job so being a manipulative piece of **** is their only way to generate income.
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Old Today, 08:26 PM   #3891
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

DGAF and I have been talking back and forth about how many pros there really were prior to the no-limit boom that came with the advent of internet capped games and the Rounders/Moneymaker impact. I don't really know how many there were, but I've known a lot of the big bet pros over the years. And I can say that with very few exceptions they knew how to cultivate a good atmosphere in the game, and you'd basically never hear strat talk or see behavior demeaning to the rec players in the game. It's one thing to develop a sound PIO based strategy and quite another to learn how develop and sustain a good game. Anyone who really wants to make money over the long term needs the latter skill as much or more than a cutting edge technical strategy, imo.
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Old Today, 09:15 PM   #3892
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by jrr63 View Post
DGAF and I have been talking back and forth about how many pros there really were prior to the no-limit boom that came with the advent of internet capped games and the Rounders/Moneymaker impact. I don't really know how many there were, but I've known a lot of the big bet pros over the years. And I can say that with very few exceptions they knew how to cultivate a good atmosphere in the game, and you'd basically never hear strat talk or see behavior demeaning to the rec players in the game. It's one thing to develop a sound PIO based strategy and quite another to learn how develop and sustain a good game. Anyone who really wants to make money over the long term needs the latter skill as much or more than a cutting edge technical strategy, imo.


I can only speculate but I would guess that pre boom a lot of them would be under the term gambler more than poker pro. They would play pool or gin etc as well.

There were a lot less casinos on the USA then there are now. My guess is a lot more home, bar, pool hall, golf course etc games. I would guess that outside Vegas and a few other place there were not enough games to sustain some one just on poker. In fact you might need to be in the golf game to get in the poker game after.

If you hear stories about Doyal or other old timers they were playing golf making prop bets being a bookie playing other card games etc as well as poker.

Either way I would be surprised if the number of poker pros as we think about them today was more than a few hundred maybe a thousand at most pre Boom. Just a guess on my part.


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Old Today, 09:57 PM   #3893
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I can only speculate but I would guess that pre boom a lot of them would be under the term gambler more than poker pro. They would play pool or gin etc as well.

There were a lot less casinos on the USA then there are now. My guess is a lot more home, bar, pool hall, golf course etc games. I would guess that outside Vegas and a few other place there were not enough games to sustain some one just on poker. In fact you might need to be in the golf game to get in the poker game after.

If you hear stories about Doyal or other old timers they were playing golf making prop bets being a bookie playing other card games etc as well as poker.

Either way I would be surprised if the number of poker pros as we think about them today was more than a few hundred maybe a thousand at most pre Boom. Just a guess on my part.


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It's interesting to speculate about numbers - hundreds to thousands, probably hundreds if you are talking people who really made a living. There were a lot more limit pros than big bet pros I'm certain, since most of the casino poker was limit variations. And you are right in that a lot of the guys i know/knew didn't just play poker - some played pool and golf as you say, and gin, tonk, ****-can, whatever the game of the day might be. Some bet sports and some booked the games.

The only time I ever joined a country club is because that's where the local big poker game was. Shortly after I joined the game it moved to the house of a local politician. I was able to get in the game before it moved so that was ok, but I was stuck with the membership. I just tried to win more at the post round gin game than I lost at golf
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