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Old 01-12-2018, 09:32 PM   #3851
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
I can't tell if people are playing devils advocate or not. I just can't believe some of the stuff people are spewing the last few posts or so.

To the Walmart / free market supporter- go read a book dude. Free markets don't work in the real world and Walmart is... evil. Both are great examples to why our planet/ environment is trash and also why we have extreme income inequality.

To the guy who supports stables- I guess you don't have any problem with the bots and in game software helpers? I mean stables are basically the live version of a bot ring, but instead of hitting a simple on/off switch you're dealing with real human beings.

DGAF- I would wager a very high percentage of poker players are sociopaths. Much like a lot of politicians, ceos and lawyers have sociopathic tendencies much higher than the general population.
Thanks for the support. It would be nice if others would chime in as well- whatever their opinions are. I have no interest in taking on all that is wrong in the (poker) world by myself.

Another big problem for me (aside from not having the time) is that I have had all these discussions before (some many times) itt and in other threads. I don't have the energy/interest in re-hashing (even if I did have the time). That and diffusing the classic argument tactics (rationalizing, clouding, distracting, twisting, etc) is some real lawyer **** that honestly feels like (unpaid) work!

FWIW- here is the same conversation back when Runitonce wanted all the money: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...53/index2.html

I would not book your wager. I was just pointing out the general population percentage because I was proud of myself for Googling it for my book . I'm sure poker is more dense with socios (and psychos) than most industries/the general population.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:32 PM   #3852
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Free markets don't work in the real world
Do not want to derail the thread with Marx vs. Keynes economic discussion, but there's a reason some of the most successful economies in the world that offer higher standards of living are free market or close to free market economies (with the exception of countries like Kuwait, UAE and Saudi Arabia who hit a Bad Beat Jackpot).

Just think of North and South Korea for Pete's sake...
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:21 PM   #3853
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
I can't tell if people are playing devils advocate or not. I just can't believe some of the stuff people are spewing the last few posts or so.

To the Walmart / free market supporter- go read a book dude. Free markets don't work in the real world and Walmart is... evil. Both are great examples to why our planet/ environment is trash and also why we have extreme income inequality.

To the guy who supports stables- I guess you don't have any problem with the bots and in game software helpers? I mean stables are basically the live version of a bot ring, but instead of hitting a simple on/off switch you're dealing with real human beings.

DGAF- I would wager a very high percentage of poker players are sociopaths. Much like a lot of politicians, ceos and lawyers have sociopathic tendencies much higher than the general population.
Any type of unallowed software is cheating obviously. Do you think every poker player is evil in the same way you think a stable or training site is evil? Stables aren't live versions of a bot ring and unless a stable is ghosting their players in their deep runs they aren't doing anything wrong.

Last edited by TheTyman9; 01-12-2018 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:33 AM   #3854
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
I can't tell if people are playing devils advocate or not. I just can't believe some of the stuff people are spewing the last few posts or so.



To the Walmart / free market supporter- go read a book dude. Free markets don't work in the real world and Walmart is... evil. Both are great examples to why our planet/ environment is trash and also why we have extreme income inequality.



To the guy who supports stables- I guess you don't have any problem with the bots and in game software helpers? I mean stables are basically the live version of a bot ring, but instead of hitting a simple on/off switch you're dealing with real human beings.



DGAF- I would wager a very high percentage of poker players are sociopaths. Much like a lot of politicians, ceos and lawyers have sociopathic tendencies much higher than the general population.


Sorry I must have done a poor job communicating. My point was not that training sites are good. ( they are not good for higher steaks games) Nor that free markets are good. ( though I think they are the best option we have in most places but this thread is not the place for that discussion.). It was that in the mostly free market that we have that they ( training sites) will exist and complaining about them I feel is futile.

Sorry if my comment derailed this thread.


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Old 01-13-2018, 01:35 AM   #3855
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

What those who participate in staking rings/coaching/training site creation lack is twofold imo: an understanding of what the game of poker is, and a personal code of honor.

Poker is a zero sum game intended to be played by individuals on equal footing save for their intellectual capacities. Being part of a staking "team", being provided money to play a game that you cannot afford, and things such as texting your friend who's sitting across the table HH's and information is all unethical behavior.

For all it's significant negative aspects, earning money through poker has the saving grace of granting absolute individualism and freedom. staking "corporations" desecrate that ideal.

Those involved in coaching/training sites succumb to the fallacy of thinking that the game of poker should be treated like a business. Through putting out good information they saturate the games with aspiring pros with good fundamentals, thus lowering the winrates of all professionals, causing the truly recreational guys to lose money faster, and sucking the fun out of the games. basically, screwing over their past friends and competitors for selfish means.

I do not buy arguments of naivete and "love of teaching" and "poker is a sport" (it's not).These people know the damage they are doing to the poker community and do so anyways.

tangent - what % of pros at live 5/T+ do you think read this thread?
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:25 AM   #3856
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Icanadd- thanks for clarifying. Change is slow and may never come, but remaining silent has to be the worst option imo.

Ty- So if I'm interpreting this right, using the software is cheating because it's not allowed... i.e. You're using the rulebook as a moral compass instead of just thinking it through?

Live stables and bot rings are very similar. You recruit a bunch of guys to learn aka copy your strategy (whether or not it's the best is irrelevant)... and then they go out and put in a ton of hours and clog up the games while you sit back and take a cut.

There's no difference between that and a really good poker player building a bot and spreading it out over a bunch of sites.

Both are morally and ethically wrong. Both do an insane amount of damage to the games. But according to you, one is bad and the other is fair game because the lol "rulebook". I'm at a loss for words dude.
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:51 AM   #3857
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by icanadd View Post
Sorry I must have done a poor job communicating. My point was not that training sites are good. ( they are not good for higher steaks games) Nor that free markets are good. ( though I think they are the best option we have in most places but this thread is not the place for that discussion.). It was that in the mostly free market that we have that they ( training sites) will exist and complaining about them I feel is futile.

Sorry if my comment derailed this thread.


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If they are bad and most don't see it, not complaining ("complaining" isn't the word I would use for voicing an opinion in an online forum but w/e) about them is irresponsible.

And if they are bad for the big games, they are bad for all games. The small games need the big games. Poker needs long-term winners. Eventually people will catch on that every winner these days is just someone on a heater.

Spoiler:
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:21 PM   #3858
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by OolongKing View Post
What those who participate in staking rings/coaching/training site creation lack is twofold imo: an understanding of what the game of poker is, and a personal code of honor.

Poker is a zero sum game intended to be played by individuals on equal footing save for their intellectual capacities. Being part of a staking "team", being provided money to play a game that you cannot afford, and things such as texting your friend who's sitting across the table HH's and information is all unethical behavior.

For all it's significant negative aspects, earning money through poker has the saving grace of granting absolute individualism and freedom. staking "corporations" desecrate that ideal.

Those involved in coaching/training sites succumb to the fallacy of thinking that the game of poker should be treated like a business. Through putting out good information they saturate the games with aspiring pros with good fundamentals, thus lowering the winrates of all professionals, causing the truly recreational guys to lose money faster, and sucking the fun out of the games. basically, screwing over their past friends and competitors for selfish means.

I do not buy arguments of naivete and "love of teaching" and "poker is a sport" (it's not).These people know the damage they are doing to the poker community and do so anyways.

tangent - what % of pros at live 5/T+ do you think read this thread?
That no one is arguing vs this post is very telling (they will now though that I brought it up- my bad). Really amazing post man. It was exactly what this discussion needed imo. It was exactly what I needed for sure. You should post more often, and your style of logic + organization - emotion - other noise is one we should prob all emulate (I'm going to try).

Funny question. My friend who plays the biggest asked me the same one a few years ago. I said I thought it was mostly 2-5 guys and enthusiasts who have real jobs- I didn't have to worry too much about people I play against all the time gaining insights into my game/life.

He said he thought everyone read it.

IDK, 600k views is a lot for a thread in this desolate sub-forum, and I swear I hear stuff on poker shows and what not that really makes me think the person saying it is a lurker. Having said that, on more than one occasion I have had someone out me at a table (fun!) and another reasonably long-term pro be like "what's that"?

At the risk of being way wrong, 51% of all 5-10+ "pros", with that number moving way up with longevity (and way down for newbs)?

Edit: I just looked at my blog stats and 23 countries have viewed it so far (and it's only been up for a month and a half/I haven't even gone seo or anything on it yet because I'm still building the permanent pages). Not sure if that helps or not, but def any time I post itt I feel like enough people will read it to make it worth my while.

Last edited by DGAF; 01-13-2018 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:56 PM   #3859
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
If they are bad and most don't see it, not complaining ("complaining" isn't the word I would use for voicing an opinion in an online forum but w/e) about them is irresponsible.

And if they are bad for the big games, they are bad for all games. The small games need the big games. Poker needs long-term winners. Eventually people will catch on that every winner these days is just someone on a heater.

Spoiler:
DGAF thanks for the reply. Total respect for your thoughts. I have never been the most articulate writer so not being about to clearly get out on paper and communicate my thoughts is something I will continue to work on.

I guess I think that these issues are not as black and white as most. Maybe I lack enlightenment. Maybe I am missing the point.

Would you say 2+2 is bad for the game? Plenty of people get better reading the forums and books. But the community and books bring and keep in rec players. I for one made an online deposit after circling back to 2+2 and re kindling an interest in the game. But this thread has made me think about variance and maybe plug one of my biggest leaks being over competitive..... So I would guess it is both good and bad for poker? The balance of which is really hard to measure.

As far as people eventually learning and stoping coaching/training I do not think so. I think that if there is a mostly free market and there is mutual benefit that good or service will exists. I do not intend to say that the market is good or bad but it is and will be.



I think poker naturally heads to more perfect competition in the economic sense. With or without training sites and coaches. I do not think there has to be long term winners. There only needs to be the belief that there can be. The variance in the game will make sure people believe this.

As long as there is enough players to pay rake casinos will spread games. As long as people enjoy it as recreation, or think they can be a long term winners poker will be. How big, how many players depends on a ton of variables. I do not think pro poker players have to be for poker to be. Maybe I am wrong I have many less hours in the poker world that others in this thread.

Interested to here yours and others thoughts.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:34 PM   #3860
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
Icanadd- thanks for clarifying. Change is slow and may never come, but remaining silent has to be the worst option imo.

Ty- So if I'm interpreting this right, using the software is cheating because it's not allowed... i.e. You're using the rulebook as a moral compass instead of just thinking it through?

Live stables and bot rings are very similar. You recruit a bunch of guys to learn aka copy your strategy (whether or not it's the best is irrelevant)... and then they go out and put in a ton of hours and clog up the games while you sit back and take a cut.

There's no difference between that and a really good poker player building a bot and spreading it out over a bunch of sites.

Both are morally and ethically wrong. Both do an insane amount of damage to the games. But according to you, one is bad and the other is fair game because the lol "rulebook". I'm at a loss for words dude.
You aren't interpreting it correctly and you seem like you've decided your view is correct no matter what so no real point in continuing discussing it. If you wanna think bots and running a stable are the same thing than you're allowed.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:42 PM   #3861
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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You aren't interpreting it correctly and you seem like you've decided your view is correct no matter what so no real point in continuing discussing it. If you wanna think bots and running a stable are the same thing than you're allowed.
Why don't you explain to us how a stable works then if what I wrote is completely wrong? Stables recruit guys to copy/learn a strategy and then they're expected to go out and grind 60 hours a week or whatever while you sit back, answer questions, and take your cut without ever playing a single hand...

much like a bot ring owner does.. they set it up and then sit back and collect money while the bots play tons of hours...

So again, please explain to all of us where I'm wrong and why stables aren't unethical and why people shouldn't object to them?

Awaiting your reply
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:46 PM   #3862
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Why don't you explain to us how a stable works then if what I wrote is completely wrong? Stables recruit guys to copy/learn a strategy and then they're expected to go out and grind 60 hours a week or whatever while you sit back, answer questions, and take your cut without ever playing a single hand...

much like a bot ring owner does.. they set it up and then sit back and collect money while the bots play tons of hours...

So again, please explain to all of us where I'm wrong and why stables aren't unethical and why people shouldn't object to them?

Awaiting your reply
It's a waste of time getting into a further back and forth about it. My opinion isn't gospel just like yours isn't. You don't seem at all open to changing your opinion and that's fine, you can believe whatever you want.
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:09 PM   #3863
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

You have a very strong opinion agianst what I wrote but won't take the time to explain to me and others like DGAF and Ooolong... so why did you post in the first place?

I'm all ears, I could be wrong/ not see the stable situation clearly.. so why don't you explain the points I made?

The guys who oppose it / thinks it's horrible for the games have lots reasons... but you can't even come up with one in support of stables/staking....
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:52 PM   #3864
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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You have a very strong opinion agianst what I wrote but won't take the time to explain to me and others like DGAF and Ooolong... so why did you post in the first place?

I'm all ears, I could be wrong/ not see the stable situation clearly.. so why don't you explain the points I made?

The guys who oppose it / thinks it's horrible for the games have lots reasons... but you can't even come up with one in support of stables/staking....
I explained why (in my opinion) there isn't anything wrong with coaching/training sites etc and you responded with a bunch of stuff that for the most part (again in my opinion) makes zero sense. Seeing as you somehow think I gave no reasons in previous posts, how will it be helpful or a good use of time to repeat to you the exact same things already written which you clearly choose to disagree with?

Neither myself nor anyone else that I've seen has said that stables/coaches are good for the games. It would be in my best interest if those things didn't exist. I just don't think they are doing anything wrong or are morally corrupt just because they are doing something that lowers my personal ev.
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:59 PM   #3865
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

dgaf,

have you thought about creating your own home games / taking games private? it sounds like the fish and recs love you and you give up a lot of EV to achieve that. this way you get to always play against worse players and it solves problems with the lower win rates and increased variance due to increased skill. obviously, this hurts all other pros, but how much do you care about them?

I know earlier in this thread someone mentioned how this could be hurtful to the overall ecosystem, but has your stance changed on that?
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:13 PM   #3866
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Teaching/coaching poker is not the same as teaching/coaching anything else <-- was discussed/explained/decided ad nauseam itt, I'm not going to do it again (hint: poker is a zero sum game and iirc the key poster in the discussion was Nit Bag)

I made money without infringing on others. That's the code.
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It would be nice if others would chime in as well- whatever their opinions are. I have no interest in taking on all that is wrong in the (poker) world by myself.
i dont think your arguments on this topic are particularly strong logically (in part for reasons already discussed) and basically boil down to the claim that poker pros owe a moral duty to other pros (pro here just shorthand for derives main source of income from poker). not taking issue with that, just an assessment of the argument. i also think that there is a lack of clarity/specificity on both sides of what is being argued. "you" here is the royal you but please correct me if you think im misrepresenting/misunderstanding.

i think you are claiming: (1) pros should not work for training sites bc (2) those sites are bad for the game (just using training sites as a concrete example)

(imo you are using "edge available to a pro" as a proxy for bad/good for the game.)

i think part of where your argument struggles is with the acknowledgment that there is a tragedy of the commons: pros would be better off not acting individualistically (no one makes training sites), but there is a collective action problem bc it is arguably in certain peoples best interests to just to take the cash grab.

you combat this by claiming that it is shortsighted for any pros to take the cash grab (they are acting illogically because discounted future gains from a better game outweigh the immediate payoff), but don't really support this point further. imo this is unsupportable bc (a) its virtually guaranteed there are some pros this isnt true for (pros who are changing careers or who actually cant beat the stakes they want to play) and (b) its ~impossible to value the "better game" ev and we don't know their immediate payoff. i think you also ignore situations where the person is providing training that is only helpful below their actual stakes, so it costs them very little ev (i.e. sauce123 making vids), and where the person gets some non-monetary benefit (personal enjoyment, more concrete "work experience" for a resume, etc.). its very hard to make a strong case that it is in no one's best interest to take the cash grab.

i think this takes you to: even if its +ev, they shouldn't do it bc of a duty they owe to the poker community (general moral obligation, "code of honor", reciprocating/giving back to the community by not making the tragedy of the commons worse)

nothing wrong with making that claim, but imo the discussion would be more productive if everyone was on the same page as to what the disagreement is, which it doesn't seem like is currently the case
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:36 PM   #3867
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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DGAF thanks for the reply. Total respect for your thoughts. I have never been the most articulate writer so not being about to clearly get out on paper and communicate my thoughts is something I will continue to work on.

I guess I think that these issues are not as black and white as most. Maybe I lack enlightenment. Maybe I am missing the point.

Would you say 2+2 is bad for the game? Plenty of people get better reading the forums and books. But the community and books bring and keep in rec players. I for one made an online deposit after circling back to 2+2 and re kindling an interest in the game. But this thread has made me think about variance and maybe plug one of my biggest leaks being over competitive..... So I would guess it is both good and bad for poker? The balance of which is really hard to measure.

As far as people eventually learning and stoping coaching/training I do not think so. I think that if there is a mostly free market and there is mutual benefit that good or service will exists. I do not intend to say that the market is good or bad but it is and will be.



I think poker naturally heads to more perfect competition in the economic sense. With or without training sites and coaches. I do not think there has to be long term winners. There only needs to be the belief that there can be. The variance in the game will make sure people believe this.

As long as there is enough players to pay rake casinos will spread games. As long as people enjoy it as recreation, or think they can be a long term winners poker will be. How big, how many players depends on a ton of variables. I do not think pro poker players have to be for poker to be. Maybe I am wrong I have many less hours in the poker world that others in this thread.

Interested to here yours and others thoughts.
2p2 is a community forum- not a strategy forum. There are strategy threads here and there, but they are not organized well enough (how would outsiders know what is a good post, what is a bad post, what is a troll, etc?) to do too much harm... HSNL used to be bad for poker (well known posters dropping very valuable ****). Then people got smart and stopped posting strat- so much so that the sub-forum no longer even exists.

Poker is not for the uber competitive. Only the uber competitive make it through adversity, but poker is still very not for them. The scoreboard isn't accurate. Luck is too big a factor. You "lose" to often. Etc...

It wasn't always this way, but it is now. The über competitive should play chess...

IDK if the market for coaching/training sites will always be there. I personally think poker is a giant bubble. If/when it bursts, adios market obv... There just isn't work anyone can put in at this point to fade how insanely chaotic poker has become, because no one folds now and no one is polarized. Even if people aren't great at thinking (people still click their brains out imo), they've turned poker into a crazy variance festival where no one can fade running bad.

You used to be able to fade running bad (as long as you didn't run too bad).

Having said that, I won't be passive. I won't tolerate nits (aka "parasites"). Even if I can't do anything about them, I'm def not gonna hush for them or for their fanboys. All that **** just makes me sick. Passive behavior is pathetic and the reason why so much in the world is ****ed up. Imho.

I'm writing a book about all this and within I explain why poker needs long-term winners, so I'm not really going to take that on here as well. Two things though, who is going to start the games and keep them going if there are no pros? Who are all the dreamers going to look up to?
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:36 PM   #3868
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Jvs

Every single legitimate industry has a strict set of guidelines to follow. If you don't follow them then you face the consequences.

The thing with poker is there are no rules, or guidelines or lines in the sand. It's the Wild West. Which means the scumbags and the sociopaths get to race to the very bottom.

I was under the impression that this threads goal was to discuss and lay out guidelines for professionals to follow for the benefit of everyone.

Those who have morals and ethics ingrained in them don't need to be told. The guys who race to the bottom aren't going to stop until there are real consequences. The problem is no poker room has ponied up and given a **** about it.

I would love for a room in Vegas to put their foot down and do something about it. No staking, no selling pieces, no stables, no seat selection, no advertising, no headphones, no tablets etc etc. If you break the rules then you get 86'd. Just a clean run, no bs poker room.
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:40 PM   #3869
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by pewpewrobot View Post
dgaf,

have you thought about creating your own home games / taking games private? it sounds like the fish and recs love you and you give up a lot of EV to achieve that. this way you get to always play against worse players and it solves problems with the lower win rates and increased variance due to increased skill. obviously, this hurts all other pros, but how much do you care about them?

I know earlier in this thread someone mentioned how this could be hurtful to the overall ecosystem, but has your stance changed on that?
Poaching/private game running is a bogus behavior imo (because its reciprocation leads to a downward spiral). Zero doubt in my mind I could make a lot of money doing it. I don't think like that though/I could never do it. I have been approached many times to partner, just as i have been approached many times to coach...
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:09 PM   #3870
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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i dont think your arguments on this topic are particularly strong logically (in part for reasons already discussed) and basically boil down to the claim that poker pros owe a moral duty to other pros (pro here just shorthand for derives main source of income from poker). not taking issue with that, just an assessment of the argument. i also think that there is a lack of clarity/specificity on both sides of what is being argued. "you" here is the royal you but please correct me if you think im misrepresenting/misunderstanding.

i think you are claiming: (1) pros should not work for training sites bc (2) those sites are bad for the game (just using training sites as a concrete example)

(imo you are using "edge available to a pro" as a proxy for bad/good for the game.)

i think part of where your argument struggles is with the acknowledgment that there is a tragedy of the commons: pros would be better off not acting individualistically (no one makes training sites), but there is a collective action problem bc it is arguably in certain peoples best interests to just to take the cash grab.

you combat this by claiming that it is shortsighted for any pros to take the cash grab (they are acting illogically because discounted future gains from a better game outweigh the immediate payoff), but don't really support this point further. imo this is unsupportable bc (a) its virtually guaranteed there are some pros this isnt true for (pros who are changing careers or who actually cant beat the stakes they want to play) and (b) its ~impossible to value the "better game" ev and we don't know their immediate payoff. i think you also ignore situations where the person is providing training that is only helpful below their actual stakes, so it costs them very little ev (i.e. sauce123 making vids), and where the person gets some non-monetary benefit (personal enjoyment, more concrete "work experience" for a resume, etc.). its very hard to make a strong case that it is in no one's best interest to take the cash grab.

i think this takes you to: even if its +ev, they shouldn't do it bc of a duty they owe to the poker community (general moral obligation, "code of honor", reciprocating/giving back to the community by not making the tragedy of the commons worse)

nothing wrong with making that claim, but imo the discussion would be more productive if everyone was on the same page as to what the disagreement is, which it doesn't seem like is currently the case
This is kind of a lot and I'm about to sleep (solid bed time of 1 pm obv) so I'll just try to focus on the EV tree (if you will)...

The ONE thing we all chase our entire lives is inner peace/happiness. It's a natural, strong AF desire that we know if/when achieved lets us enjoy our time on Earth fully, and it allows us to do what we can to benefit our species (and others). We can't do **** basically until/unless we have some semblance of it...

Most people think wealth/**** will get them there. I think they are misguided/short sighted- all the data that has come back since the beginning of time suggests this as well. But that's fine I guess, to each his own/chasing wealth is not -EV on its own imo...

Acquiring wealth/**** by infringing on others is -EV, because 2 proven keys to inner peace/happiness are making connections and contributing (people are gonna hate you and you are doing the opposite of contributing)...

Go ahead and chase wealth if you want, but do it in a mutually beneficial way if you can, or at least in a way that doesn't infringe on others. No way you are sitting on the porch with a legit smile when you are old if you come up via infringement imo.


It's all math and honestly it all seems pretty basic to me (but I'm not young and I've been thinking about this **** for a long time/have had wealth a couple times and felt no bump in inner peace/happiness- nothing like when I make a real connection or help someone).

Also, I can't believe people don't think there is a code.

Ni ni
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:41 PM   #3871
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Note: I'm running into the same problem I have run into intermittently over the years--> this thread simply taking up too much of my time. I believe in this thread/think it has great value to the poker community, so I won't ever completely abandon it (I have tried to several times and it didn't work anyways- I always ended up right back in here), but I also can't infringe (hot word these days) on my new freelance job, all my endeavors (blog, book, songs, startup, etc) or even playing a little poker, all in the name of getting TF out of debt/paying back the people I owe...

Moving forward, I will only be posting in my 2k thread on 2 plus 2 on Tuesdays. Hopefully that aggro literation will remind me/guide me from here on...

Spoiler:


By all means though, carry on without me. My voice has been heard too much on all this stuff as it is. It's time for others to provide their perspectives/keep peeling back the onion.

Thanks
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:16 PM   #3872
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
You just described the great revolving door that lets pros in and out of poker every few years... Whatever pros are in action now are doing whatever Doug Polk has taught them to do. The ones who came and went before them were doing whatever Phil Galfond taught them to do. And the ones that came and went before that were doing whatever Taylor Kaby (I think that was his name) taught them to do...

Forgive me if I forgot any of the poker capitalists that basically said, "Yeah I made millions from this game, **** my peers tho cuz I want more and I'm not sure I can stretch this heater out forever. I'm gonna go right ahead and sell the latest technology/what's left of significant edge available. Sure the games will become much less beatable as a result/basically variance festivals, but some of my students will go on heaters- and that will be my marketing right there! They can tell their friends who got the same training but didn't run hot that they didn't work hard enough, or they misapplied concepts or whatever... And if some grizzled vet like that idiot DGAF on twoplustwo calls me out for ****ting on my peers/breaking the code, I'll just say 'I love teaching and maybe you should work harder on your game'. And obv my fanboys (who have zero grasp of variance/what's up with all this lol- I love them tho) will have my back and it will all be good."

Having said that, I'm getting TF out of poker full-time. And when I make it in the real world, I'll come back and play anyone hu. Even the guys who have been studying their asses off and eating healthy and meditating and are betting 1/999 on the flop at that point and thinking of starting the next training site because they just binked a bracelet or whatever.

Live poker is all about creating/maintaining the action, weighing the zillion variables of each hand appropriately, thinking logically about your custom situation- quickly and without giving anything away, and then just hoping to God that you don't get ****ed. I'll always be good at those things imho.

Spoiler:
This post is amazing
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:36 PM   #3873
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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This post is amazing
TY. See you all in a week!
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:55 AM   #3874
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
TY. See you all in a week!
This is the content i crave RIGHT HERE!!! 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

For real, this is the last first person thread on 2+2 that I follow daily. Keep doing you, DGAF.

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Old 01-19-2018, 04:44 AM   #3875
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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DGAF is tonedeaf. His insistence that education vendors have some kind of a moral responsibility to keep him in business is laughable.
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Originally Posted by Olaff View Post
There's no doubt education is the #1 culprit in games getting "worse". It's ridiculous how education vendors can even try to deny this. Yet.. they do
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