Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-11-2018, 01:03 AM   #3826
AALegend
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Philly
Posts: 1,276
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post

Originally Posted by AALegend
I have also been around as a semi-pro for 8 years (averaging a postal worker's salary playing 800-1000 hours a year)

this approach/amount

you did it perfectly assuming you LOVE poker (it's too much if you don't)
I think my life would be a bit more balanced if I played a bit less, but I found that this is an optimum amount for me, as if I go below it, the quality of my play diminishes. And being a very competitive person I am, if the quality of my play is not there, I become frustrated and no longer enjoy myself. Also, I like to reinvest some of that cash game income into Live-MTT crackaments as well as buy pieces of other players, and I do not like using non-poker money for that, requiring a certain minimum amount of play/poker income. So unlike a pure rec player, I can't just play 1 night a week. The part that also helps is my primary business as well as my real estate investments are somewhat seasonal in nature and I mostly work Tues-Thurs, so I can play Fri and Sat sessions without having to work before them.

One thing that I found couple of years ago that helps me a lot is a 24-hour gym membership near my place. My work involves a lot of frustration dealing with inept clients requiring technical support and let's face it sometimes poker sessions get really frustrating when the likes of Olaff decide to take a sit at the table. So, I bought myself a pair of boxing gloves and beat the living **** out of a punching bag for 20 minutes or so after a frustrating day at work or at the tables. Best $40 a month I spend.
AALegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 08:33 AM   #3827
DGAF
Pooh-Bah
 
DGAF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,154
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
DGAF- I have never played you, I most likely never will, and I know next to nothing about your game. You have won more money than I ever will, and you have played stakes higher than I ever want to play. I can sort of assume that you being obsessed with variance means youre probably obsessed with your own game... I hope. Now... that said, the game eventually passes every by if you aren't careful, and even if you are, the nature of no limit means edges are always diminishing. I remember playing guys who would 2/3 pot every 3b pot... they were eventually replaced by guys who 1/2 pot.. and those guys were eventually replaced by guys betting 1/3 and 1/4 pot... that's just one example but I'm sure you get my point. Yeah, you're probably running like ****, and yeah I 100% believe you have sick live reads etc etc... but revisiting the books and studying the new theory out there has got to do you some good
You just described the great revolving door that lets pros in and out of poker every few years... Whatever pros are in action now are doing whatever Doug Polk has taught them to do. The ones who came and went before them were doing whatever Phil Galfond taught them to do. And the ones that came and went before that were doing whatever Taylor Kaby (I think that was his name) taught them to do...

Forgive me if I forgot any of the poker capitalists that basically said, "Yeah I made millions from this game, **** my peers tho cuz I want more and I'm not sure I can stretch this heater out forever. I'm gonna go right ahead and sell the latest technology/what's left of significant edge available. Sure the games will become much less beatable as a result/basically variance festivals, but some of my students will go on heaters- and that will be my marketing right there! They can tell their friends who got the same training but didn't run hot that they didn't work hard enough, or they misapplied concepts or whatever... And if some grizzled vet like that idiot DGAF on twoplustwo calls me out for ****ting on my peers/breaking the code, I'll just say 'I love teaching and maybe you should work harder on your game'. And obv my fanboys (who have zero grasp of variance/what's up with all this lol- I love them tho) will have my back and it will all be good."

Having said that, I'm getting TF out of poker full-time. And when I make it in the real world, I'll come back and play anyone hu. Even the guys who have been studying their asses off and eating healthy and meditating and are betting 1/999 on the flop at that point and thinking of starting the next training site because they just binked a bracelet or whatever.

Live poker is all about creating/maintaining the action, weighing the zillion variables of each hand appropriately, thinking logically about your custom situation- quickly and without giving anything away, and then just hoping to God that you don't get ****ed. I'll always be good at those things imho.

Spoiler:
DGAF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 11:18 AM   #3828
Avaritia
Confirmed 2500 hour haver
 
Avaritia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Dante's Inferno
Posts: 9,427
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Lol 1/999 psb. I like it.
Avaritia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 12:14 PM   #3829
iamallin
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Lonely planet
Posts: 93
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

The young are full of energy but naive.
The old are tired but wise.

The old give the young some advice.
The young don't want to play nice.

The old want to give back and leave a legacy. The young want to create their own reality.

In time, the old are gone and the young are old. But lessons stay the same. Some better learnt the hard way than taught the easy way.

Such is the circle of life.
iamallin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 12:21 PM   #3830
Teph
old hand
 
Teph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: rely
Posts: 1,763
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
Amazing and brave post.

Too much stress (poker is endless decision making and therefore stressful no matter how you run), too many unresolved conflicts (going all the way back to early childhood), too much financial strain, too much bad luck, too much exposure to a dark environment/superficial relationships, too much ADD medicine, too much alcohol, not enough sleep or exercise or balance in my life, etc, had me in a very dark place around the time I was composing what I thought would be the super long 3-part conclusion to this thread.

I would get all but catatonic after sessions. When I wasn't sitting perfectly still and just staring at the cherries on a slot machine after another 95/5 for all my money down the drain or whatever, I would scratch my face until it bled, scream "****KKKK!" in my car, ponder (not consider) if it would be better if I just wasn't alive anymore, etc. I knew deep down that what I was doing/thinking was foolish and pathetic, but the pain had finally gotten to be too much.

^^^ is rock bottom of the abyss.

I was EXTREMELY lucky in that I had someone who always had my back in all ways. I was also lucky that I had kids. Those three beacons enabled me to "see the light" and make a very important decision- I will never give up no matter how bad I run or how deep a hole I have to climb out of/you only get one crack at life and feeling pain is better than feeling nothing- especially since there is ALWAYS the chance things could turn around for you.

Once you establish ^^^, dwelling has little purpose in your life, and all you start to do at that point is consciously work on not dwelling (until the regular inclination to do so no longer arises)...

Once you have learned to not dwell (not easy, but doable), you learn to look at your life and its arch objectively for the first time (almost like an out of body experience). You dig DEEP for understanding... Suddenly you just see yourself for the math equation of genetics x environment x variance that you are/always have been...

^^^ understanding brings you great relief and inner peace you've never had before... And then you realize everyone else is just an equation too--> no one has ever been bad to you or went from communal to self-absorbed on you on purpose. You legit start to feel bliss (even though you still have a ton of climbing out to do)...

Then you decide to use your awareness to give yourself a second chance at life (you will never forget the past, but you will also never let it hold you back moving forward). You also decide to help others better their lives by sharing your insights- and by providing solidarity for all those willing to reciprocate...

You realize communal behavior is the only behavior that works as a system. You decide you will give all your attention to those who reciprocate/are communal for the rest of your life, and none to those who don't reciprocate/are non-communal (aka "nits" aka "parasites")- because they are the system that failed you the first time around (and will inevitably do so again- if you let them).

You know it's going to be hard as hell, but you now have the tools to exercise some rare Free Will (almost no one has Free Will if you really think about it). You know 100% that poker full time is no longer feasible/right for you (you know it's not feasible right for anyone long-term, but you realize you must exit NOW)...

---

So I've started a company (it's coming along nicely) committed to providing solidarity to all those who are communal, I have a blog now (lots of views each day) where I share my insights/art, I'm writing a book (gman just pre-ordered 50 copies ) that attempts to save poker from itself/non-communal behavior, I might consult for a poker room/maybe even run a show similar to Live At The Bike (no strategy, all entertainment and community)...

I also got a job working freelance as a Forensic Analyst. The more I learn about mental health, the more I seek balance in life and riddance of stress and anxiety. The more I want to tell people DO NOT TRY TO MAKE POKER YOUR CAREER.


Thanks again Teph for your amazing contribution, sorry I had to piggy-back with that wild rant. I needed it though (and I'm sure a lurker or two who really cares about me needed it too). Best of luck to you, and know that (most of) the community in this thread is here for you if you ever need to work through anything. And we are all ears of course if you ever just want to share more of your story/learnings.

PEACE
Appreciated dude. I think that parenthood is the universal savior for most people, tbh. Being forced into responsibility (military, high-demand job, parenthood), especially as a younger adult, forces you into self-preservation mode... I for sure never had that and my desire for a life of "freedom" left me making whatever decisions on my own, learning from mistakes, and my general selflessness really just made me neglect caring for myself. Essentially I just never grew up and when my hand was forced I basically had a breakdown and no responsibility to own up for, so I was allowed to recover on my own time (for better or worse).

With this new outlook on life, I see a lot of younger people in poker that are inevitably going down a similar road who aren't going to listen (I never did), and I just really think that I want to dedicate part of my time left in this game communicating with people in their version of the abyss, and trying to at least patch some lifeleaks.

I am mostly dry, sarcastic, pessimistic, and am plagued by piles of self doubt when it comes to communicating about this stuff by default, so being open about stuff like this is very new to me. Posting in here under my s/n was pretty stressful tbh so I appreciate the kind words and encouragement.

Finally back on the grind today, so a lot of bitterness is about to be mainlined lolol. Will hopefully keep in touch ITT.
Teph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 02:16 PM   #3831
diskoteque
Joey Local
 
diskoteque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 30,019
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Lol 1/999 psb. I like it.


That made me laugh too so good
diskoteque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 02:17 PM   #3832
diskoteque
Joey Local
 
diskoteque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 30,019
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

We appreciate teph really awesome stuff
diskoteque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 04:19 PM   #3833
upswinging
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 359
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
You just described the great revolving door that lets pros in and out of poker every few years... Whatever pros are in action now are doing whatever Doug Polk has taught them to do. The ones who came and went before them were doing whatever Phil Galfond taught them to do. And the ones that came and went before that were doing whatever Taylor Kaby (I think that was his name) taught them to do...

Forgive me if I forgot any of the poker capitalists that basically said, "Yeah I made millions from this game, **** my peers tho cuz I want more and I'm not sure I can stretch this heater out forever. I'm gonna go right ahead and sell the latest technology/what's left of significant edge available. Sure the games will become much less beatable as a result/basically variance festivals, but some of my students will go on heaters- and that will be my marketing right there! They can tell their friends who got the same training but didn't run hot that they didn't work hard enough, or they misapplied concepts or whatever... And if some grizzled vet like that idiot DGAF on twoplustwo calls me out for ****ting on my peers/breaking the code, I'll just say 'I love teaching and maybe you should work harder on your game'. And obv my fanboys (who have zero grasp of variance/what's up with all this lol- I love them tho) will have my back and it will all be good."

Having said that, I'm getting TF out of poker full-time. And when I make it in the real world, I'll come back and play anyone hu. Even the guys who have been studying their asses off and eating healthy and meditating and are betting 1/999 on the flop at that point and thinking of starting the next training site because they just binked a bracelet or whatever.

Live poker is all about creating/maintaining the action, weighing the zillion variables of each hand appropriately, thinking logically about your custom situation- quickly and without giving anything away, and then just hoping to God that you don't get ****ed. I'll always be good at those things imho.

Spoiler:
Sad but true. There are a lot of "small" time guys too who did their share of ruining it too. All the guys who give coaching sessions, all the guys who sell at crazy mark ups, all the guys involved in staking/ stables (I heard there's a huge one in vegas?) which all combined has ruined the integrity and competiveness of the game.

Those guys of course have nothing to say for themselves. I've tried to understand their perspective/ rationalize... you know why would they continue to do what they do even when they know it's bad... and the only logical reason I could come with is because they're sociopaths.
upswinging is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 05:11 PM   #3834
DGAF
Pooh-Bah
 
DGAF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,154
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamallin View Post
The young are full of energy but naive.
The old are tired but wise.

The old give the young some advice.
The young don't want to play nice.

The old want to give back and leave a legacy. The young want to create their own reality.

In time, the old are gone and the young are old. But lessons stay the same. Some better learnt the hard way than taught the easy way.

Such is the circle of life.
Where did you get that? I like. Not sure many care about a legacy, but maybe. Either way, pretty damn true overall.
DGAF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 05:35 PM   #3835
cohensir
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 26
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Hi all. I haven't posted here in quite some time, but I have been following this thread, and besides thinking it is great on many levels, I also empathize and sympathize with DGAF. I have never played at those stakes, but I spent 6 years playing 5-10 and 10-10 live NL as my only source of income. I can't say that I was full-time as I maxed out at 1,200 hours one year, but mostly just under 1000 hours each year. I have a family, and I loved the flexibility of playing as well as I love the game. My last year playing those stakes, I had a similar experience as DGAF. I ran ridiculously under EV in large all-in spots at the same time as having to pull bankroll for personal needs outside of poker. I am a pretty positive person when it comes to poker, but the constant wrong side of variance is debilitating. I still play at the 2-5 level, but I have started other endeavors to keep various streams of income available. I have advantages in playing poker that many don't. I have a supportive wife who works full-time. When I started playing poker for a living, I was older and had already made money in other things, so I had already saved some money for retirement, bought a house, put money away for my kids' college, etc. I think most pros should consider having other sources of income, so when the darkness comes, they are mentally prepared.

The points I love, have witnessed, and agree with in this thread are:

1) Variance on either side (though you feel it more to the downside) can last a really long time. When I hear people say they ran bad for a whole month, I chuckle to myself and think, "try running bad for a year or so."

2) As I said above, having other sources of income is a good idea. The happiest pros and the pros I have met with the most longevity almost all have other endeavors.

3) While I am pretty disciplined, I have seen many pros go away due to life leaks. It is amazing how many pros I have met that weren't happy playing poker. If you are smart enough to make money at poker, why wouldn't you pursue something that makes you happy? Also, make sure you are happy and disciplined outside of poker!!

4) And to DGAF's credit, responding to the possibility of the game passing him by, the good live pros don't care if there is a new crop of guys with new theories. Sure it is important to continually grow, but really it is about being better adjusting to whoever you are playing. One of my favorite things is making a purposely exploitative play against a young up and coming pro, and having that pro outwardly complain about how bad I played a hand.

Thanks DGAF for this thread, and thanks to all who have contributed. It has helped me focus and get back to the tables with a clear mind, and I am certain I have learned some things. Good luck all!!
cohensir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 06:47 PM   #3836
DGAF
Pooh-Bah
 
DGAF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,154
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teph View Post
Appreciated dude. I think that parenthood is the universal savior for most people, tbh. Being forced into responsibility (military, high-demand job, parenthood), especially as a younger adult, forces you into self-preservation mode... I for sure never had that and my desire for a life of "freedom" left me making whatever decisions on my own, learning from mistakes, and my general selflessness really just made me neglect caring for myself. Essentially I just never grew up and when my hand was forced I basically had a breakdown and no responsibility to own up for, so I was allowed to recover on my own time (for better or worse).

With this new outlook on life, I see a lot of younger people in poker that are inevitably going down a similar road who aren't going to listen (I never did), and I just really think that I want to dedicate part of my time left in this game communicating with people in their version of the abyss, and trying to at least patch some lifeleaks.

I am mostly dry, sarcastic, pessimistic, and am plagued by piles of self doubt when it comes to communicating about this stuff by default, so being open about stuff like this is very new to me. Posting in here under my s/n was pretty stressful tbh so I appreciate the kind words and encouragement.

Finally back on the grind today, so a lot of bitterness is about to be mainlined lolol. Will hopefully keep in touch ITT.
There is def a great deal of anxiety when you start putting real stuff about yourself out there. You do so because you want to help others- and you really want to get it out of your system and gain some clarity yourself (so you can start fixing yourself). Also, you are just sick of all the fake stuff out there/everyone always painting unrealistically bright pictures of themselves. You have come to realize that those super bright/one-sided pictures do much more harm than good in the long run...

So you spew your issues and your blood pressure starts to rise- "OMG, they are gonna know I'm crazy/****ed up/etc..." Maybe an Olaff (not ready to deal with his own stuff obv) comes in and flames you/makes your blood pressure rise a little more, maybe someone says "nice post, thanks", maybe it's just crickets. Either way you have begun the healing process for yourself (full acknowledgment is the first step obv) and you have done others a great service by putting some real **** out there for them to relate to/learn from.

So props/congrats/I'm certain you just healed yourself and others somewhat by posting that.

What I've found (I started doing what you just did a long time ago because it was just way too much for me to keep inside/I honestly don't care if people think I'm a mess) is that EVERYONE has issues. IDK if it's because the world is so ****ed up/unloving, our brains are too advanced at this state of evolution to not spark on occasion, parents have always sucked at protecting/raising their offspring, etc, regardless EVERYONE has issues.

Some are good at masking their issues (they have lesser issues), and some are so overwhelmed by their issues that they have reached a point of helplessness (see hermits/full blown addicts/etc). Most though fall somewhere in between, they have dark and confusing moments regularly that others typically don't know anything about.

I dropped some real **** in my bio for my blog not too long ago and I instantly got anxious. I knew that for the first time people outside of the poker community were going to learn that I wasn't the always happy, funny guy with money to burn they always saw being GOAT Dad at the beach or whatever. I also knew my family (who didn't know me at all) might read it...

The feedback I got was incredible. My little brother said I changed his whole way of thinking and he thanked me repeatedly/immediately started helping me with business ventures. My friend who grew up to be a super successful orthodontist/family man texted me and said, "I've been to the shrink twice this year. I don't know wtf is wrong with me. Let's hang out soon." And so on...

I've truly begun healing/changing, and it all started with sharing what I thought were rare issues. I now know that they are not- far from it actually...

Any time you need to vent/want to share/just need a ****ing shoulder you've got this thread and PMs man.GL
DGAF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 07:22 PM   #3837
DGAF
Pooh-Bah
 
DGAF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,154
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
Sad but true. There are a lot of "small" time guys too who did their share of ruining it too. All the guys who give coaching sessions, all the guys who sell at crazy mark ups, all the guys involved in staking/ stables (I heard there's a huge one in vegas?) which all combined has ruined the integrity and competiveness of the game.

Those guys of course have nothing to say for themselves. I've tried to understand their perspective/ rationalize... you know why would they continue to do what they do even when they know it's bad... and the only logical reason I could come with is because they're sociopaths.
Many never thought it through. Some thought it through after it was too late (they decided it was too late- it never actually is). Some thought it through and decided they didn't care/they would brush their guilt under the rug/compartmentalize it (far from rare in the business world). Some believe poker is a game that you can just keep getting better at?

You can keep getting better at poker, but once everyone starts trying really hard and plugging the classic leaks (folding too much, playing against one hand instead of a range, etc) it doesn't really matter--> each hand is basically a raffle, and when the money goes in it's all but standard (if you really look at the hands closely).

Only 4% of people are sociopaths.
DGAF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 07:25 PM   #3838
DGAF
Pooh-Bah
 
DGAF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,154
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cohensir View Post
Hi all. I haven't posted here in quite some time, but I have been following this thread, and besides thinking it is great on many levels, I also empathize and sympathize with DGAF. I have never played at those stakes, but I spent 6 years playing 5-10 and 10-10 live NL as my only source of income. I can't say that I was full-time as I maxed out at 1,200 hours one year, but mostly just under 1000 hours each year. I have a family, and I loved the flexibility of playing as well as I love the game. My last year playing those stakes, I had a similar experience as DGAF. I ran ridiculously under EV in large all-in spots at the same time as having to pull bankroll for personal needs outside of poker. I am a pretty positive person when it comes to poker, but the constant wrong side of variance is debilitating. I still play at the 2-5 level, but I have started other endeavors to keep various streams of income available. I have advantages in playing poker that many don't. I have a supportive wife who works full-time. When I started playing poker for a living, I was older and had already made money in other things, so I had already saved some money for retirement, bought a house, put money away for my kids' college, etc. I think most pros should consider having other sources of income, so when the darkness comes, they are mentally prepared.

The points I love, have witnessed, and agree with in this thread are:

1) Variance on either side (though you feel it more to the downside) can last a really long time. When I hear people say they ran bad for a whole month, I chuckle to myself and think, "try running bad for a year or so."

2) As I said above, having other sources of income is a good idea. The happiest pros and the pros I have met with the most longevity almost all have other endeavors.

3) While I am pretty disciplined, I have seen many pros go away due to life leaks. It is amazing how many pros I have met that weren't happy playing poker. If you are smart enough to make money at poker, why wouldn't you pursue something that makes you happy? Also, make sure you are happy and disciplined outside of poker!!

4) And to DGAF's credit, responding to the possibility of the game passing him by, the good live pros don't care if there is a new crop of guys with new theories. Sure it is important to continually grow, but really it is about being better adjusting to whoever you are playing. One of my favorite things is making a purposely exploitative play against a young up and coming pro, and having that pro outwardly complain about how bad I played a hand.

Thanks DGAF for this thread, and thanks to all who have contributed. It has helped me focus and get back to the tables with a clear mind, and I am certain I have learned some things. Good luck all!!
Solid contribution. Thanks man.
DGAF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 09:19 PM   #3839
TheTyman9
veteran
 
TheTyman9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: gym? you betcha...
Posts: 3,479
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I don't really understand the hate for the people who run poker business and staking operations and whatever. Sure, they are making the games tougher, totally agree. But clearly they are making enough money that it benefits them to do so, or even if it's less than their playing hourly it's variance free income. I'm not saying all of the video makers or training site owners have fully thought through every angle of it, but I don't really understand why they are supposed to care if they are making the games harder for others. People start businesses all the time that cannibalize other people's businesses. People are doing what's best for them and in their best interest and they aren't doing anything legally or morally wrong. Sure I'd be better off if people stopped educating other people but why does Galfond or Polk or whoever owe it to me to not make games tougher? Really genuinely interested in hearing a more in depth answer as I've seen this opinion before and it confuses me.
TheTyman9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 09:49 PM   #3840
JoeC2012
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Suplex City
Posts: 680
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

First of all I wish I had discovered this thread earlier. The quality of discussion is super high here. Thanks DGAF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilliapina View Post
As for kids and marriage, well, I'd say it's about the hierarchy of needs. I don't think you need those to be happy, but you do need to satisfy those needs that are associated with it. Communal living can do that for you, also I find that volunteering makes me generally very content.
Yeah, I think about this a lot (especially WRT marriage, I'm pretty sure I could go without kids and not feel too bad). If I do decide to stay single for the long run I'd have to find some larger community to join and I haven't figured out what that would be. Getting involved in a University community intrigues me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque View Post
Like I said, I view my job as a means to accumulate as much money as possible so that I can retire quicker - not to buy a bunch of cool stuff. The trade off is not so clear when its option a - work hard at a soulsucking job until you’re 40 and retire and have a bunch of free time or option b - stop working now and travel/have fun but not be financially stable ever again
l
If you ever figure this one out please let me know, I think about this exact tradeoff all the ****ing time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
Forgive me if I forgot any of the poker capitalists that basically said, "Yeah I made millions from this game, **** my peers tho cuz I want more and I'm not sure I can stretch this heater out forever. I'm gonna go right ahead and sell the latest technology/what's left of significant edge available. Sure the games will become much less beatable as a result/basically variance festivals, but some of my students will go on heaters- and that will be my marketing right there! They can tell their friends who got the same training but didn't run hot that they didn't work hard enough, or they misapplied concepts or whatever... And if some grizzled vet like that idiot DGAF on twoplustwo calls me out for ****ting on my peers/breaking the code, I'll just say 'I love teaching and maybe you should work harder on your game'. And obv my fanboys (who have zero grasp of variance/what's up with all this lol- I love them tho) will have my back and it will all be good."
So I had an epiphany a few weeks ago. Doug made a video poking fun at one of the LATB fish and it was probably the cringiest thing I've ever seen in poker. At first I was thinking "WTF Doug cannot possibly be this dumb". Then I realized, Doug is NOT really a poker player, at least not like you are. He's a businessman trying to build his brand, and if making fun of a whale--or giving away the secrets to playing winning high stakes poker--gets him clicks, he's going to do it.

We've already established that playing poker as your sole source of income sucks. Doug probably realized this too and is now using the game of poker to produce a lower-variance income stream. Unfortunately, this makes it much tougher to make money at your job. But with all due respect, IMO it's dangerous to expect others to look out for the bottom line of the poker community. We're all out to get paid and this extends beyond the felt.

Anyway GL on the book and the freelance gig. Really appreciate your contributions to the thread, I've learned a lot.
JoeC2012 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 12:49 AM   #3841
icanadd
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Exiled to the Midwest
Posts: 59
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTyman9 View Post
I don't really understand the hate for the people who run poker business and staking operations and whatever. Sure, they are making the games tougher, totally agree. But clearly they are making enough money that it benefits them to do so, or even if it's less than their playing hourly it's variance free income. I'm not saying all of the video makers or training site owners have fully thought through every angle of it, but I don't really understand why they are supposed to care if they are making the games harder for others. People start businesses all the time that cannibalize other people's businesses. People are doing what's best for them and in their best interest and they aren't doing anything legally or morally wrong. Sure I'd be better off if people stopped educating other people but why does Galfond or Polk or whoever owe it to me to not make games tougher? Really genuinely interested in hearing a more in depth answer as I've seen this opinion before and it confuses me.
I agree with this. This is the free market at work. And the market is often a cold place. Human community is built on mutual benefit. If you are a live pro keeping the rec players like me either at the table or coming back is way more profitable than any one pot. Therefore there is a benefit to you to being good for the game. Those that don't realize this hurt it for the rest of the group. Nothing wrong with the good for the game community trying to get the rest of the not so good for the game to change. I don't think there is anything wrong with that community shaming those that opt for there personal benefit over the health of the community. After all if the community dies so do the businesses.

I also think the shaming will be about as effective or meaningful as complaining about wal mart putting the local hardware store out of business.

The death of poker is exaggerated. Making big money in part time play probably is dead. The ecosystem that is poker has became unbalanced during the boom. SO SO many new players. Now as that the number of new players has slowed down the number of good players to new players is off. In the future the number of poker pro's will probably be a lot more like the number of big money pro bowlers than say the number of big money soccer and basketball players globally

Pokers not dead, but the boom is and has been for a while. The housing market is not dead, but no doc loans and every third person you talk to flipping houses is. The very best/luckiest will still do real well. There will just be a lot less of them then there was and this is the market functioning normally. It is just that the market in general functions coldly not kindly.

Last edited by icanadd; 01-12-2018 at 12:59 AM.
icanadd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 02:30 AM   #3842
DGAF
Pooh-Bah
 
DGAF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,154
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

If anyone thinks prospering at the expense of others is chill (BECAUSE IT'S BEEN DONE FOREVER ZOMG THAT MAKES IT RIGHT), that's some low level Darwin **** imo. Nevertheless, you are obv entitled to your opinion. I personally think we are way past that though as human beings. I think the selfish/greedy/hyper-aggressive/financially ambitious at all costs folk are actually the weak in that they are the ones holding humanity back. I think it's only a matter of time before the rest of the species grows a ****ing backbone and deals with them.

That aside, anyone who is good at math/thinking knows that any behavior that if reciprocated by the masses would lead to a downward spiral is a bogus one (see coaching, staking, training, POACHING, seat hopping, hitting and running, etc).

Beyond that/most important, where is all the ambition coming from? What is the root of it?

We are ALL chasing happiness/inner peace- that's it (whether we know it or not). Anyone who thinks acquiring wealth > making solid connections and contributing to society when it comes to achieving happiness/inner peace hasn't done their research. And anyone who thinks acquiring wealth by burning bridges they didn't build/they merely stumbled upon, crossed, and got rich with little effort (bridges many people still depend on), those people are doomed by their consciouses- eventually.

Unless they are sociopaths. In that case all they have to fade is the masses who for now are mostly passive and weak and break out the pom poms at every turn to say, "Yay, you are awesome cuz you ****ed everyone over and got rich! So proud of you!"

Spoiler:


Imho.
DGAF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 02:58 AM   #3843
TheTyman9
veteran
 
TheTyman9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: gym? you betcha...
Posts: 3,479
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I still don't really understand the opinion. Have you not been prospering off the expense of others by winning at poker for the last decade+? How is that different?

And if they are doing something wrong by teaching people to play better poker which takes money making ability away from current pros, then by that logic isn't every teacher scummy because they are training people to eventually take someone elses job?

If they were running a training site to teach people how to cheat at poker than sure yeah, they are scum willing to profit off anything they possibly can. But if you are anti teaching people to get better at poker than you have to be anti teaching anyone anything because someone else will be negatively effected by it somewhere down the line.

And obligatory note that I enjoy your thread and think a lot of your views make sense and are understandable. This one is just one that really doesn't seem to make much sense imo.

Last edited by TheTyman9; 01-12-2018 at 03:08 AM.
TheTyman9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 03:15 AM   #3844
JoeC2012
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Suplex City
Posts: 680
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Not trying to be argumentative but I do have some food for thought to offer up. I'll say my piece here and then will drop off this current thread if you prefer; not trying to clog up your thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
If anyone thinks prospering at the expense of others is chill (BECAUSE IT'S BEEN DONE FOREVER ZOMG THAT MAKES IT RIGHT), that's some low level Darwin **** imo.
By this measuring stick, I'd say poker players themselves are far worse than content producers. I'm sure you will try to argue that winning players are providing entertainment at the tables; while this is true, I'd bet far more of their profit (in almost all cases) comes from gambling addicts and from bad regs who think they're winning. Winning regs take food off the table from bad regs & addicts; Polk takes food off the table from winning regs. Same concept, no?

Also--IMO almost EVERYONE is prospering at the expense of others. I have friends who work for MillerCoors, their main job responsibility is to make alcoholics drink more beer. I live 2 miles from the Facebook headquarters where there are thousands of data scientists who spout nonsense about "disrupting the world" or some ****, really their job is to refine their algo to make more people waste more of their lives on their silly website. District attorneys lock up poor black people for selling weed. The list of indisputably good occupations is extraordinarily short.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
That aside, anyone who is good at math/thinking knows that any behavior that if reciprocated by the masses would lead to a downward spiral is a bogus one (see coaching, staking, training, POACHING, seat hopping, hitting and running, etc).
I can't see how coaching/training sites are a downward spiral. I think it's pretty natural (and one of the best human traits) to want to learn more and more about a subject, and the dissemination of information makes this process go faster. The idea of some forms poker getting closer to being a solved game is just really, really cool, from a computer science/game theory/general intellectual curiosity standpoint. Of course, some people will be negatively affected by this, just as a bunch of travel agents lost their jobs when travel knowledge became easy to find on the internet.
JoeC2012 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 04:32 AM   #3845
DGAF
Pooh-Bah
 
DGAF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,154
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTyman9 View Post
I still don't really understand the opinion. Have you not been prospering off the expense of others by winning at poker for the last decade+? How is that different?

And if they are doing something wrong by teaching people to play better poker which takes money making ability away from current pros, then by that logic isn't every teacher scummy because they are training people to eventually take someone elses job?

If they were running a training site to teach people how to cheat at poker than sure yeah, they are scum willing to profit off anything they possibly can. But if you are anti teaching people to get better at poker than you have to be anti teaching anyone anything because someone else will be negatively effected by it somewhere down the line.

And obligatory note that I enjoy your thread and think a lot of your views make sense and are understandable. This one is just one that really doesn't seem to make much sense imo.
Teaching/coaching poker is not the same as teaching/coaching anything else <-- was discussed/explained/decided ad nauseam itt, I'm not going to do it again (hint: poker is a zero sum game and iirc the key poster in the discussion was Nit Bag)

I made money without infringing on others. That's the code.
DGAF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 05:34 AM   #3846
DGAF
Pooh-Bah
 
DGAF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,154
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeC2012 View Post
Not trying to be argumentative but I do have some food for thought to offer up. I'll say my piece here and then will drop off this current thread if you prefer; not trying to clog up your thread.



By this measuring stick, I'd say poker players themselves are far worse than content producers. I'm sure you will try to argue that winning players are providing entertainment at the tables; while this is true, I'd bet far more of their profit (in almost all cases) comes from gambling addicts and from bad regs who think they're winning. Winning regs take food off the table from bad regs & addicts; Polk takes food off the table from winning regs. Same concept, no?

Also--IMO almost EVERYONE is prospering at the expense of others. I have friends who work for MillerCoors, their main job responsibility is to make alcoholics drink more beer. I live 2 miles from the Facebook headquarters where there are thousands of data scientists who spout nonsense about "disrupting the world" or some ****, really their job is to refine their algo to make more people waste more of their lives on their silly website. District attorneys lock up poor black people for selling weed. The list of indisputably good occupations is extraordinarily short.



I can't see how coaching/training sites are a downward spiral. I think it's pretty natural (and one of the best human traits) to want to learn more and more about a subject, and the dissemination of information makes this process go faster. The idea of some forms poker getting closer to being a solved game is just really, really cool, from a computer science/game theory/general intellectual curiosity standpoint. Of course, some people will be negatively affected by this, just as a bunch of travel agents lost their jobs when travel knowledge became easy to find on the internet.
Your examples of big businesses being predatory and greedy are spot on- how do they justify training sites being predatory and greedy though? Infinite wrongs do not make a right imo...

Content producers? I thought we were talking about training sites. Confusing the issue will not make the issue less of an issue either...

Publicly solving games is fun. Publicly solving a game that is played for money at a brutally slow place--a game where variance increases as level of play increases--is short sighted.

I have won most of my money from people who had money to burn and sat down at a poker table prepared to do just that. I gave them maximum value for the EV they gave me. I also kept a thread going for 6 years in the name of opening eyes, protecting the game, saving people from the mistakes I made, etc. Even if I was a seat hopping, non-straddling, mute nit who never smiled though, that wouldn't make anything else in the world that is wrong less wrong.

If you and 7 other pros played with one whale everyday, and all 8 of you made a nice living, and the whale had fun while losing relative pennies, would you not take issue if one of the 7 other pros starting doing selfish **** that was going to **** up the great situation for everyone?
DGAF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 09:09 AM   #3847
iamallin
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Lonely planet
Posts: 93
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
Where did you get that? I like. Not sure many care about a legacy, but maybe. Either way, pretty damn true overall.
Thanks. I wrote the words but had read this somewhere in the context of journey of men and how it often comes a full circle.

We come to appreciate some life lessons only after going through life and experiencing it first hand.
iamallin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 06:50 PM   #3848
JoeC2012
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Suplex City
Posts: 680
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
Your examples of big businesses being predatory and greedy are spot on- how do they justify training sites being predatory and greedy though? Infinite wrongs do not make a right imo...
Well, as I mentioned earlier, I don't think training sites need to justify themselves. I was simply pointing out that a LOT of the world's jobs are "predatory" in some way. Some are better than others at rationalizing it.

Come to think of it Upswing is probably one of the more up-and-up businesses in the grand scheme of things. I pay them $50/mo, in return I learn to make more money at my hobby that I was going to spend time doing anyway. I get some (possibly short-lived) edge, doug gets some risk free income. Not a bad deal for either. I guess it would be more predatory if they made false promises of guaranteed success, but I've def gotten my money's worth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
If you and 7 other pros played with one whale everyday, and all 8 of you made a nice living, and the whale had fun while losing relative pennies, would you not take issue if one of the 7 other pros starting doing selfish **** that was going to **** up the great situation for everyone?
Of course I'd selfishly be mad. Beyond self-interest, though, I think I'd need more details on what kind of "selfish ****" you're talking about. Like for instance, if he gets the whale to play him heads up instead and the whale decides heads up is way more fun, who's the loser there? Other than the other pros, which I mean, who cares?
JoeC2012 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 07:43 PM   #3849
TheTyman9
veteran
 
TheTyman9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: gym? you betcha...
Posts: 3,479
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Just because someone can afford to lose the money doesn't mean you aren't infringing on them for your own benefit. And how do you decide whether the person can afford it? It just seems like you've randomly drawn a line in the sand that coaching/stables are wrong. But how by the same logic are you not being bad by ever working on your game and trying to get a bigger piece of the rec $. In your example of the 7 pros are they all supposed to just chop up the ev of the whale equally and if one of them wants to work on their game to get more of it they are scummy for trying to **** up the situation and get a bigger piece of the pie? You must think casinos are scummy business i assume? Are the workers who work there knowing the casino is there to profit off people who can't afford to lose scummy too?

I'm assuming we are just not gonna agree on all this which is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion as long as they aren't hurting anyone.
TheTyman9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 08:56 PM   #3850
upswinging
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 359
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I can't tell if people are playing devils advocate or not. I just can't believe some of the stuff people are spewing the last few posts or so.

To the Walmart / free market supporter- go read a book dude. Free markets don't work in the real world and Walmart is... evil. Both are great examples to why our planet/ environment is trash and also why we have extreme income inequality.

To the guy who supports stables- I guess you don't have any problem with the bots and in game software helpers? I mean stables are basically the live version of a bot ring, but instead of hitting a simple on/off switch you're dealing with real human beings.

DGAF- I would wager a very high percentage of poker players are sociopaths. Much like a lot of politicians, ceos and lawyers have sociopathic tendencies much higher than the general population.
upswinging is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online