Game 25/25/50 NLH;
Mid-session;
7 handed;
Hero (LAG) UTG;
Villain (LAG), breaking even, BB; (4775 effective stacks)
1st time playing Villain, very solid player. Hero and Villain and 1 other player (not involved in the hand) solid regs, rest of the table are recreational regs.

Hero (QJ)opens 150
HJ flat
C/O flat
Villain (BB) flat
Straddle flat

Pot 775;
Flop Q 8 7

Villain checks;
Straddle checks;
Hero bets 400;
Fold/fold;
Villain flats; Straddle fold;

Pot 1575; heads up
Turn 9

Villain checks;
Hero bets 1025;
Villain raises 3000; (1225 behind)

Hero action + reasoning?

My questions are; what would flatting the 3k achieve and what would 3-betting all in achieve?

Had a few discussions about this hand amongst peers face to face, there are various arguments for different lines but would Love to hear what the 2+2 community has to say.

Thanks, guys

You're basically hoping for 4 folds when you bet the flop 5 ways, which is fine, just remember that you don't really want any callers. I'd check a considerable amount of the time on the flop.

I check turn and I doubt it's a mix strategy. After he calls a 1/2 pot bet 5 ways on the flop we don't benefit enough to bet for protection and we also don't benefit enough from worse hands putting money in the pot (yes it's nice to charge specifically Axcc, 7xcc, 9xcc, KTcc and then check back river but I don't think the benefit outweighs the negatives especially because those hands aren't folding anyways so we don't get to deny any equity and those hands will be used as x/r bluffs which we have to fold to).

Easy fold after his x/r (which REALLY sucks cause we have a lot of equity vs almost any hand which is another reason we want to be checking turn). Flatting/jamming would achieve losing EV

I'm curious the reasoning for the 1025 turn bet?

If the hero is determined to put money in after the check-raise... then you may as well push & pray. Because you're never folding any river, but it lets villain save that 1225 if he happens to have a draw which misses.

yeah i agree with jarret. i would check flop this many ways. oop you should mostly be checking as the pfr anyways vs an ip flatter. you could start cbetting AQ, KQ maybe, and sets are very good cbets since you are unblocking top pairs. as played turn check is definitely mandatory and snap fold to the check raise

Definitely turn bet destroy you here. He has sets,two pairs as in big blind the range is quite wide. I would check turn. As played it's complicated because many solid regs like to bluff in these spots as board is dynamic and they can represent many hands here. I would sigh fold.

I don't play these stakes so I'm not really qualified to comment.

I would agree with Jarrett against most players but if he's really a LAG I think it's a different analysis. I would think If he's really LAG I actually like the turn bet because I think if he's a true LAG then he probably would've 3-bet his 99, 88, 77, and AQ preflop and always QQ so there aren't that many hands in his range that we're losing to. I also don't think he can really c/c the flop with 2 pair on a board this wet and I would think players at these stakes are generally good enough not to do that.

There are players, at least at 5/10 and below, that are tight enough where we could comfortably fold the turn even though a delayed c/r for value doesn't make much sense to me on a flop this wet. But I'm taking your word for it that he's LAG.

I guess shove it. We can't fold on the river and if he has any showdown value at all and then he would need to shove the river to prevent a negative freeroll. The only bad thing I can think of is if he misses his draw and has no showdown value and decides to check/fold. If you call the turn you can't fold the river.

Hero's self-description does not align with rest of post. Turn bet is pretty awful for reasons Jarretman said. As played, clear fold.

I don't know exactly what OP means by LAG, but I think it's a stretch to assume that 99, 88. 77 are always getting 3bet vs an UTG open. I think you're interpreting LAG in a very specific way that probably isn't true.

Besides, V can also easily have JT or have turned 2 pair, so there are clearly hands that beat us

I see why you are quite suspicious here. When he check raises the turn I think he is repping only flopped sets. To make a straight he needs club backup to call the flop is my mostly but not always true assumption. Did he really float the flop planning to lead rivers and rep a Q with J10 off when you block one J? It’s possible at these stakes especially but still. Did he float with the easily dominated 56 most pros now know to dump pre? Or is he actually check-raising huge with two pair here when you could have all the nutted hands, bluffs that will keep firing away, overpairs that might triple barrel or give you their stack on a full house card/middling board pair. I just don’t see many players sticking it with 98 like this even though the probably should.

I think I jam this time with your J blocker and he may even fold two pair some percentage of the time. At the end of the day I would expect him to check-raise all of his flopped flush plus straight draws and almost never just flat but that exploit could be wrong given the stakes. For the future I am checking back turn or flop based on opponent tendencies and the recent betting lines he’s seen me take with other ranges of value. Unless you are an incredible wizard and can pick these bluffs off in spots like these with live reads etc you are going to get bluff C/R a ton and have to dump your EV.

I agree with a lot of this. FWIW, I'm not convinced that Villain would c/c with all of the bolded hands.

But the major problem with betting the turn is exactly what jarretman says -- you are going to get check raised frequently, and you will end up folding a hand that has plenty of equity, but not enough to call a c/r or shove.

.

Jarretman, I meant that I wasn't sure all those combos would c/c the flop.

Ah yes he should mix calling and raising for sure

I apologize for giving a definition of LAG that was untrue. Also, thank you for your astounding insight that villain may have a hand that beats us.

Is it a mandatory straddle game? If not, how common are straddles? I agree with the crowd that the turn bet is bad. You can only bet fold this spot vs fish, and you said he was a solid player. Vs a good reg you need no play something vaguely resembling an optimal strategy, so I just can't support betting all your made hands down to QJ without some kind of ironclad read. As played, fold? You're getting a price and he could have some semibluffs but it sure looks like you're never folding once you bet 1k.

On a semantic note, villain flatted you pre and he called the flop. To "flat" means to call a raise after having bet.

lol wtf?

You: He doesn't have many hands that beat us
Me: But what about all these hands
You: Ok he obviously has hands that beat us. You're not a genius for pointing that out.

How about you try to have a consistent POV and not be such a sarcastic prick?

I would check, or bet lower. You are only getting raised by low flushes or FDs. Depending on villain, I would call turn.

I would check turn since you only have TPGK+gutshot and do not have 3 street value
Villain is BB and 4 player call before him, his value is very wide. He can easy has 2pair/set at flop, or completed straight in turn (even 65o). Once villain check-raise at turn, you will difficult to continue by holding TPGK+gutshot.
So Check turn and river plan to...
Call river to catch bluff or villain check river again you may bet small to thin value

Dont think this game is US$..

They both achieve the same thing, losing a bunch of money.