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2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? 2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river?

11-18-2017 , 05:49 PM
Game is 2/5/10 with 3k max BI. We are about 3k effective.
7-handed.

V1 (HJ) is a decent LAG, just probably too wide and aggro in some spots
V2 (BTN) is a good TAGgish player. He very often bets close to 3/4-full pot, and probably leaks from not sizing down in some spots. There were a few river spots where he has been overbetting (up to about 2x pot) in smallish pots (e.g., $250 into $130). I folded each time against him in these spots. He has made some pretty thin value bets, and I think he’s only been caught bluffing once in several hours.
V3 (straddle) - not important to hand.
Hero (SB) - not exactly sure how I’m perceived, but at least a decent player. There was one hand against V2 where I x/r shoved turn 440->1900 on a KJ3dd5 board, and he folded.

Preflop: V1 opens to $40. V2 calls. Hero calls SB with TT. V3 calls. (Note: I think V2 is most often 3betting BTN with JJ+/AJs+)

Flop ($160): 338
Checks to BTN/V2 who bets $85. Hero calls. Others fold.

Turn ($330): 7
Hero checks. V2 bets $225. Hero calls.

River ($780): 2
Hero checks. V2 bets $530. Hero?

Should I be raising at some point in this hand?

Last edited by pocketzeroes; 11-18-2017 at 05:56 PM.
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-18-2017 , 07:37 PM
3b pre to $220 esp given LAG open.

AP, I play flop and turn same. River is close, I feel like folding. He has all the flushes/boats. You can call if you think he bets A8/78/99 like this.
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-18-2017 , 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ylac
3b pre to $220 esp given LAG open.

AP, I play flop and turn same. River is close, I feel like folding. He has all the flushes/boats. You can call if you think he bets A8/78/99 like this.
I didn’t love the idea of playing TT OOP as a 3bet against V1 lag with 300BBs - mostly because I expect him to have some light 4bets (and he can get stacks in pre with AK) and expect him to try to float/make moves a fair amount of time postflop (he is capable of shipping rivers with both air and thin value if he senses weakness).
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-19-2017 , 04:30 AM
3bet pre unless straddle/bb is a whale

I call river as played
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-20-2017 , 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ylac
3b pre to $220 esp given LAG open.

AP, I play flop and turn same. River is close, I feel like folding. He has all the flushes/boats. You can call if you think he bets A8/78/99 like this.
V's sizing seems pretty odd for a boat, especially on the turn when the flush draw was still out so I discount that a bit. He has flushes in his range for sure but seems like he might check behind on turn instead of risking getting blown off his draw on that card.

I don't know...what do you beat really? An aggressively played A8, 99 and bluffs. Not enough to call IMO.
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-20-2017 , 03:31 PM
He could be betting smaller than usual because he has a value hand and he knows that this isn't a board where you can have a good second-best hand that would happily call off tons of money.

He could be betting smaller than usual because he's bluffing and thinks the difference is subtle enough that you won't notice or take it into account.

Without being present at the table it's tough to weigh those possibilities.

Given what you said about your big turn check-raise against him, he might think you're weak in this hand. That would make me think about whether raising is superior to calling, since he could be betting a flush against your perceived pair, and your raise would credibly represent 88/33 (in retrospect, it would make sense to him that you slowplayed on a paired board whereas you just stuffed the money in on a wet unpaired board). But without a strong gut feeling on that, I'd still lean toward folding. I wouldn't expect good players to be full of bluffs when three-barreling in a spot like this where their range is wide open and where the price of calling is attractive. (And it seems overly optimistic to think that he's value-betting worse hands with any sort of frequency.)

In summary, I'd make a decision based upon my history with the player, and what you've given in your post is inconclusive.
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-20-2017 , 06:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ylac
3b pre to $220 esp given LAG open.

AP, I play flop and turn same. River is close, I feel like folding. He has all the flushes/boats. You can call if you think he bets A8/78/99 like this.
3b squeeze to 22 bigs?
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-22-2017 , 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by surf doc
3b squeeze to 22 bigs?
There's 9.5BB already in the pot, you can make it smaller I guess but my preference is to size bigger OOP, esp given it's multiway.

If HJ 4b, gonna have to think about it but prob calling pre and calling at least 1-2 streets on favourable boards.
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-23-2017 , 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ylac
There's 9.5BB already in the pot, you can make it smaller I guess but my preference is to size bigger OOP, esp given it's multiway.

If HJ 4b, gonna have to think about it but prob calling pre and calling at least 1-2 streets on favourable boards.
If HJ 4b, most likely there are only 2 streets or less of betting with our stack sizes... I don’t see him size down all that often in spots where most people do (eg, wouldn’t be surprised to see him 4bet AK from 220 to like 700)
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-24-2017 , 08:50 AM
3b pre, raise flop, fold river
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-24-2017 , 11:56 AM
Can go a lot of different ways this hand

I’ll 3b pre with some frequency but don’t think flatting is bad

Flop I will raise with some frequency depending on villains tendencies to bluff on later streets. Given you’re description i would probably be inclined to just flat and hope he continues to bet for thin value

As played once I call flop I think turn call is fine and standard

As played I would fold river and wouldn’t be particularly upset about it
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-24-2017 , 12:01 PM
I will add that his sizing makes me think he has a flush. Our hand looks a lot like a flush so if he had a boat I would expect him to bet larger for max value. I think he’s looking for value from a smaller flush or 3x.

That being said, I agree with soah that raising here would be preferable to calling if you think you can credibly rep a monster with your history
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-24-2017 , 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque
Can go a lot of different ways this hand

I’ll 3b pre with some frequency but don’t think flatting is bad

Flop I will raise with some frequency depending on villains tendencies to bluff on later streets. Given you’re description i would probably be inclined to just flat and hope he continues to bet for thin value

As played once I call flop I think turn call is fine and standard

As played I would fold river and wouldn’t be particularly upset about it
And how do you do that? Do you have a portable RNG on you?

Spoiler:
everything is fine at some freqency
Spoiler:
#Poker2017
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-25-2017 , 09:49 AM
I do it sometimes and don’t do it other times based on the session and my image
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-25-2017 , 10:00 PM
3b is super standard and easily highest ev option.
Flatting and playing a capped range oop is tougher/costs you more ev/ harder to balance than the old I didn’t 3b and have to play oop in a 300bb pot
This just means you gotta play your ranges better post flop. If you balance your ranges and 3b smart ranges and make sure you play your ranges smartly on various boards you should be fine in these sb vs lp open spots.
Plus most live regs aren’t doing anything to exploit you. They call too many 3bs and as a whole play pretty bad in 3b pots ime. If he’s bluff shipping air 2 much Bc “he senses weakness” he’s probably just clicking buttons and you wanna be playing big pots w him.
Also wrd to the sizing. 4-5.5x is mostly the standard oop for 3b sizings and the maths have shown it to be the highest ev 3b size so not agreeing with some of comments there

Anyway as played It’s fine and As for river I lean towards fold there’s a bunch of hands that beat you and villain has all of them. He’s have to be rly doing a lot of bluffing here, and also think he’ll have a tough time finding bluffs for this size and line
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-27-2017 , 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016
3b is super standard and easily highest ev option.
Flatting and playing a capped range oop is tougher/costs you more ev/ harder to balance than the old I didn’t 3b and have to play oop in a 300bb pot
This just means you gotta play your ranges better post flop. If you balance your ranges and 3b smart ranges and make sure you play your ranges smartly on various boards you should be fine in these sb vs lp open spots.
Plus most live regs aren’t doing anything to exploit you. They call too many 3bs and as a whole play pretty bad in 3b pots ime. If he’s bluff shipping air 2 much Bc “he senses weakness” he’s probably just clicking buttons and you wanna be playing big pots w him.
Also wrd to the sizing. 4-5.5x is mostly the standard oop for 3b sizings and the maths have shown it to be the highest ev 3b size so not agreeing with some of comments there

Anyway as played It’s fine and As for river I lean towards fold there’s a bunch of hands that beat you and villain has all of them. He’s have to be rly doing a lot of bluffing here, and also think he’ll have a tough time finding bluffs for this size and line
Yeah, V1 is definitely a button clicker. Agree that 3! might be most profitable. I guess ultimately, I didn’t want to deal with the variance at the time (wasn’t up for calling off all/most of my stack after something like a JJ6 flop, though I most likely would have against him). Had I 3bet, I would’ve probably went 200-220, so I agree about that.
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-27-2017 , 02:37 PM
Then you should probably be playing smaller tbh
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
11-30-2017 , 08:45 AM
^ +1

Your not going to have less "less variance" by playing tight.
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
12-03-2017 , 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by day'n'night
^ +1

Your not going to have less "less variance" by playing tight.
I think choosing to play TT as a call pre vs a 3bet when (1) stack sizes are deep, (2) I am OOP, and (3) the PFR is a very aggro lag - *will* result in less variance... I mean, maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think TT has that enormous of an equity edge against reasonable ranges for PFR and BTN caller... Also, I play this game because I have higher tracked win rates in $10 BB games than 2/5. I don’t think we have to eek out every EV advantage for a given stake to be more profitable than the one below. And though I’m still building my BR, I could take some hits at these stakes and be ok - it would just be nice not to put 3k+ stacks at risk more often than necessary to maintain a solid WR.

Regardless, point taken, and thanks. 3betting TT is probably best.
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote
12-10-2017 , 04:30 AM
It's counter intuitive but playing tighter ranges preflop actually leads to more variance (fwiw I could just be talking out of my ass on this one as I've never seen proof!)
2/5/T - Call TT on flushing river? Quote

      
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