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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 11-07-2013, 01:56 PM   #1
dpbuck
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2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

At the suggestion of some of those in the Live Low-stakes NL Forum, am cross-posting this hand here because we were so deep. I butchered this hand badly, but even after a week of contemplation, and after some discussion in the other forum, I still am unsure of what the optimal line was. Let me have it - don't hold back...



(Sorry in advance for the lengthy leadup - I think everything below is important for our reads in this hand.)

$2/$5 at River Rock in Vancover during their WSOP Circut Stop. First time I've ever played there.

Villain is mid-20's scruffy white kid, hoodie, sunglasses, Pittsburgh Pirates hat, seated in the three seat. Hero is mid-30's black guy, fleece sweater, dorky card protector, seated in the nine seat. Villain bought in for $1500. We had only played for an orbit or two, neither of us doing much, when I left for a dinner break. At that time, he still had around his $1500 starting stack. Hero had around $2000.

When I came back from dinner 40 minutes later, villain had pushed up to about $2200 or so. Within the first few hands after I got back, he got into a raising war from the button vs. the big blind, eventually six-bet shoving, forcing a fold. Over the next twenty minutes or so, villain was very very active, betting and raising a lot preflop and on the flop, BUT NEVER BEING FORCED TO SHOW ANYTHING DOWN. I felt like he was very loose and aggressive, bullying the table, and not simply holding good hands, but don't know that for certain. He very quickly ran his stack up to $3000.

Meanwhile, hero had been pretty tight/aggressive, and hasn't been in any pots with villain. Been aggressive when in the pot, and also took down a bunch of pots without showdown. Only hand shown down was AQ on AKQxx board, where hero raised pre, then bet all three streets out of position. Hero's stack was now around $3000 as well.

Now, while this was going on, a crazy loose player plopped down in the seven seat (two to my right) with a $1500 stack. He immediately started raising just about every hand for an orbit or so, then got up for a smoke break. A couple hands later, the player to my immediate right in the eight seat got up and left. Villain immediately requested that seat. When villain came over, I asked why the seat change, and he indicated he wanted position on the guy in the seven.

So now the loose new guy was in the seven (but away on a smoke break), villain with $3K was in the eight, and hero also with $3K was in the nine.

Now, on to the hand...

Effective stacks $3000
Hero in SB with AKo.

Preflop:
One EP limper to villain on the button who raises to $25. Hero 3-bets to $75. Limper folds. Villain 4-bets to $175. Hero calls.

(I started to immediately get nervous playing out of position 600 BB deep against this guy. I'm hoping that I remained calm on the outside, but maybe he could sense it. That fear of running into a cooler situation this deep kept me from 5-betting. I just expected him to shove over it, and wasn't sure what I would do if he did.)

Flop: 883. Hero checks. Villain bets $225. Hero calls.

(Villain is betting 100% of his preflop raising range there. All three options ran through my head, but I decided to call. I'm thinking he's got everything from quads to 72o in his range here. I didn't want him to fold.)

Turn: 3. Hero checks. Villain bets $375. Hero raises to $1000. Villain calls.

(I wanted to end the hand now. It's unlikely he has an 8 or 3 here. I guess a pocket pair isn't ever folding, and I guess I want his unpaired high cards still in there. Looking back on it now, what was I hoping to accomplish with this raise???)

River: A. Hero shoves remaining ~$1300.

(A terrible shove, I know. More interesting. If I check, and villain shoves, I should call, right?)

I can't believe I ended up playing such a huge pot at 2/5 in this fashion. We all talked about this hand at the table for the rest of the night. I'm interested to know what you guys think on each street. I'm prepared to be roundly criticized (especially the river shove), but hope I can learn and be better prepared for playing deep against this type villain OOP.
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Old 11-07-2013, 02:26 PM   #2
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

For starters don't 3bet oop this deep unless you can get him to 4bet (which you did but don't want). As played I would probably cc the whole hand getting the money in as played vs this player is horrific. Honestly you would have been better off 5bet folding or folding to the 4 bet.
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Old 11-07-2013, 05:49 PM   #3
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

preflop: calling oop is the absolute ****ing worst. In theory I like the idea of raising, though, I usually just muck.
flop: don't float someone in a 3bet+ pot. this is a c/f type of flop.
turn: are you ****ing nuts? if you're ahead you can call him down for around $1000, and he's unlikely to fold any hand beating the nut no pair.
river:
you're obviously shipping the river, though a check call is probably better. definitely don't fold river
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Old 11-07-2013, 11:19 PM   #4
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

Pre- 3 bet to $100.....5b>fold> call.....calling OOP sucks

Flop- I'd prefer to have 5b pre to keep initiative but as played calling is ok

Turn- total spew here....raise has no meaning, your just clicking buttons....

River- shoving is ok.....this is the best part of this massacre of a hand.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:43 AM   #5
the real mg0698
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

This deep vs this type of player i don't mind just flatting PF

As played I would fold turn, And river is bleh I don't know what to do, and I guess I don't mind a jam
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:24 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

The whole 'I want to end it now thing is pretty pretty bad.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:33 PM   #7
The Muffin Man
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

Not 3betting here is a mistake. Make it 100. Facing a 4bet, I probably get another bet in against this guy, but flatting is certainly better than folding.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:11 PM   #8
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

I don't think pre is bad. But I think if we 5 bet we give the chance for V to spew.
Flop as played standard.
Call turn. The only value hand you could have here is quads.
Check river to induce.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:37 PM   #9
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The main problem is you are uncomfortable with both the villain and the deep stacks. Should have left long ago imo.

As for the hand Muffin has it right as usual.
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:37 PM   #10
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

Some pretty awful advice in here. Pre is totally fine. I would've made the 3b a bit bigger but flatting the 4b is pretty standard. (Vs the guy you describe a 5b maybe ok but I think flatting is better)

Not sure why you're so hung up on the river when the turn is by far the most misplayed street. You said it yourself, you aren't really accomplishing anything. I understand the discomfort of being in massive pots with marginal holdings but you just have to master that emotion. Wanting to "end the hand now" is never a valid rationale. As played I think you have to jam the river but its not a spot you should be in.

I would've called the turn and given quite a bit of consideration to calling a river bet as well.
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Old 11-08-2013, 04:34 PM   #11
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

Thanks for the advice all. I know I misplayed this hand horribly.

To all those who've said in essence "If not comfortable playing deep, get up and leave?", how is one supposed to get comfortable playing this deep without actually being willing to play deep, find oneself in awkward positions, make mistakes, and learn from them? How do you propose improving in those spots without actually playing? (Honest question!)
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Old 11-08-2013, 04:36 PM   #12
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpbuck View Post
Thanks for the advice all. I know I misplayed this hand horribly.

To all those who've said in essence "If not comfortable playing deep, get up and leave?", how is one supposed to get comfortable playing this deep without actually being willing to play deep, find oneself in awkward positions, make mistakes, and learn from them? How do you propose improving in those spots without actually playing? (Honest question!)
You're not comfortable because of the dollar amounts, not because of the #of BBs. When deep at a 2/5 table you should likely avoid playing big pots. Experiment at 2/3 until you're comfortable.
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Old 11-08-2013, 05:01 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

3b pre bigger

c/c flop

c/c turn

c/c river

edit: lol we've played together before
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:20 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

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You're not comfortable because of the dollar amounts, not because of the #of BBs. When deep at a 2/5 table you should likely avoid playing big pots. Experiment at 2/3 until you're comfortable.
Maybe I'm playing in the wrong 1/2 or 1/3 games, but I've never been at a table with multiple people that deep. I've been 600+ deep myself, but not with anyone else anywhere close to that at the same time.

I personally think getting into and past those situations is part of the development of a poker player. I remember being nervous as hell the first time I sat down at a 1/2 table with $200 in front of me, after previously playing 3/6 limit on $60. I got past it. The only difference between the games is the mistakes are more expensive.

I appreciate all the feedback of "walk away", and I definitely get what you're saying. But with the edge I had over the table, I wasn't going anywhere before or after that pot.
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:20 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siculamente View Post
edit: lol we've played together before
We have?
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Old 11-09-2013, 12:51 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

Some terrible advice itt. Flatting 4b is fine, c/c, c/c, c/c post.
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:17 PM   #17
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

To those who advocate a 5b, what is the plan if V 6-bets? Even if he is aggro, getting it in here for 600bb seems pretty disastrous, especially if we don't have any particular history between us.
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Old 11-09-2013, 02:45 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

You should have no 3b range here.
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Old 11-09-2013, 09:46 PM   #19
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
You should have no 3b range here.
vs a good LAG I agree with this....vs some LAG fish I think having no 3bet range is pretty insane. As played river shove seems good, but the turn raise is an abortion. Pre seems fine, flop seems fine. Turn is either a fold or a call and soulread river.
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Old 11-09-2013, 10:12 PM   #20
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

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Originally Posted by AAismyfriend View Post
vs a good LAG I agree with this....vs some LAG fish I think having no 3bet range is pretty insane. As played river shove seems good, but the turn raise is an abortion. Pre seems fine, flop seems fine. Turn is either a fold or a call and soulread river.
I wasn't saying you shouldn't AA.
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Old 11-11-2013, 06:33 AM   #21
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

Villain's 4bet is strong here if he is aware of his image at all. You guys haven't been in a pot together. Why would he try to 4bet bluff a random live TAG who hasn't 3bet at all yet and who he also does not have an aggressive dynamic with. Villain knows you probably view him as wild and aggressive. His 4bet is pretty heavily weighted to JJ+ AK. I'm flatting.

With this assumption flop becomes a pretty easy check/fold.
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Old 11-11-2013, 09:44 AM   #22
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

I don't think villain's 4bet range is for value only. Given his description, he has a fair amount of bluffs to put any TAG under pressure this deep. As played, I don't get why you raised the turn. You said you don't want to run into a cooler this deep. This board won't suck you out, so you bluff your stack away?

While I think preflop is okay (I like just flatting, too), your flop c/c is fine as well (as he has plenty of worse hands imo), the turn is awfulČ as stated above and, finally, I like your river shove - villain wouldn't try to bluff you off QQ/KK.
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Old 11-12-2013, 05:48 PM   #23
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

Hero problem isn't how you played every street(yes you butchered them alright..) but the thinking behind each decision and what you're not considering as well. If you're not gonna at least put villain on a range and adjust that each street based on his actions(let alone your own perceived range) then 600bb deep you're just a mark at the table. A lot of those paragraphs you wrote are also irrelevant.. what villain does vs other players has little to do with how he plays you.
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Old 11-13-2013, 08:23 PM   #24
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I just think you started this hand with 3/betting AKo as a standard without laying down a solid plan vs an agro/thinking player OOP.
If we know that he's going to 3barrel bluff with a huge part of his range then flatting AK pre is not that horrible of an option, players tend to over value that hand forgetting that's it's only a drawing hand and looks kinda pretty pre flop since we block some combos of AA-KK and it would be unlikely for villain to hold either pair.
Vs a lag style player we are always 3/betting for value, even hands like A10s-AJs A10o-AJo KQs 88-JJ fall into that category,
So unless we are playing All our value hands vs his BTN range the same, meaning he raises BTN we 3/bet 1010-AA he 4/bets we call and then we check call all the way letting him value own himself on such a dry board, or are we ch/ring flop for value with our big over pairs.

I actually don't like the reverse float at all, he will be pressuring all the way to the river with 100% of his range as he should as you would in the same spot!

I'd much rather ch/r flop for value/bluff on this board and fold to a shove, don't really see any merit for check raising turn cause your value range is very narrow and I don't think you would do with quads or an over pair.

As played you got yourself in a sticky spot, c/c or jam seem like your only options, just don't fold now.
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:08 AM   #25
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Re: 2/5 - AK OOP, 600 BB Deep vs Ultra-Laggy Player

600 bigs deep huh...

How exactly did you plan to make $$$ this hand?
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