Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-16-2012, 07:14 PM   #1
jimmyvjv13
Life Grinder
 
jimmyvjv13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Repping Aces @ZepHendrix
Posts: 4,981
10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

10/20/40 at aria, formerly hyper aggro table has calmed down now that weaker players sat down.

V1: Foreign, not sure from where but speaks English despite it not sounding like his native language. Hasn't played many hands at all but seems kind fishy. Plays 5 hands then leaves for 20 minutes at a time. 6k

Hero: playing LAG not sure V2 has any idea of this whatsoever due to lack of involvement in the session, up about 10k on the session and playing a lot of hands. 21k

two EP limps, V1 limps, hero raises QT to 160, folds around and one EP and V1 call.

Flop J96

EP and V1 check
Hero bets 280
EP folds
V1 raises to 800 (not sure what he does this with tbh, probably with more hands than he should)
Hero tanks 15 seconds and calls

Turn 3
V1 bets 1200
Hero tanks 30 seconds and calls

River 4 bringing the flush but not the one I want
V1 thinks 10 seconds and bets 1400
Hero wants to raise to 3800

I really want to raise here because his river bet is kinda small and I don't think he really likes that river much. I also think I really look like a draw (obviously I have one). River bluff raises are pretty rare and I haven't done one all week and although he doesn't realize this I think it would get a lot of credit. Thoughts on bruff?
jimmyvjv13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 08:03 PM   #2
krolewicz
adept
 
krolewicz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,037
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

you risk 3800 to win like 6k? fair enough i guess but I'm pretty sure I'm not pulling this on my std online aggrofish (referring to: not sure what he does this with tbh, probably with more hands than he should)
krolewicz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 09:34 PM   #3
soah
Unexpected
 
soah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 59,652
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

no one ever believes that the preflop raiser has a flush on a 3-flush board
soah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 09:54 PM   #4
diskoteque
Joey Local
 
diskoteque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 29,709
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

great spot to bluff but not sure if id have the balls to pull it off.
diskoteque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 10:39 PM   #5
JasonP530
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,290
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

He doesn't look nutted based on his turn betsizing and the drawiness of the board. Can't decide if I think you need to make it a bit more on the river...
JasonP530 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 10:47 PM   #6
case3
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 179
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

Very limited credibility line, vs kinda fishy unknown, laying him huge odds.
case3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 11:27 PM   #7
Adam27X
veteran
 
Adam27X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York/New Jersey border
Posts: 2,083
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

I don't like it vs this villain
Adam27X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 12:05 AM   #8
cstevens
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 916
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

i like the way you played the hand each street, i actually would prob play the hand exactly the way you did.

the 1400 bet on river is no means a small bet for him. even though it really is, to guys like him its pretty bulky.

i just dont see guys like this fold sets/2pair here enough which is why the way you played the hand is optimal because when you make your hand you will get paid off big.
cstevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 01:25 AM   #9
bamboo6386
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,080
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

wait how much does villain have left? 3800 puts him all in right? Looks fine to me.

I don't know about flop sizing. I'd prolly bet bigger on a wet board like this in general, but as an exploitative play it seems fine. I'm just wondering if betting half pot induced some light bluff raises from villains in general.
bamboo6386 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 01:33 AM   #10
nutsfl0pper
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,298
Clear fold fold fold
nutsfl0pper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 01:15 PM   #11
RaiseIt
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 141
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

Well played- now fold river. We need more info about the villain do be able to make this bluff. People do not like to fold in live poker.
RaiseIt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 01:24 PM   #12
dmkai3
veteran
 
dmkai3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,613
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

Was this hand straddled to 40? If so, I'd raise bigger or call 40.

I'd fold river. Villain sounds potentially like the fishy/impatient type. If he has a set I think he'll tank for 3 minutes, say **** it it's a huge pot and I'm getting great odds, and crying call. Your LAG image doesn't isn't favorable either.
dmkai3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 02:25 PM   #13
vinivici9586
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vinivici9586's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,228
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

thinking about this from a game-theory and range perspective, i would love to bluff. we have basically the nut low, and can rep the draw that came in.

i'm not sure what would be better to turn into a bluff adax/adjx or this hand, but i'd be really tempted to do it with either. (i guess you can call ad/ax type hands)

i'm curious why people think this is such a snap fold. are live players really incapable of bet/folding a set or aj here?
vinivici9586 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 02:37 PM   #14
bigoiltrader
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 466
His bet sizing is strangly good for a fish... Is it his mannerisms or specific actns he's taken in hds to lead you to believe that's he's prob a fish? Country of origin could give us a marginally better read in this situation- By foreign do you mean asian or russian or scandinavian or middle eastern or ethiopian or wat?

Most fish and whales tend to bet (a lot) more on the turn with 2p+ on this board. Assuming he's a rec plyr, his hand after the turn bet looks like AJ a dec amt, KJ occasionally, and one of many big draws like 87d. His river bet could easily be either a blocking bet with AJ KJ esp if he's lagfish or a flush that doesn't think you have much of a hand to pay him off with.

On the turn you could certainly make a case for shoving bc 1. We get good fe v AJ KJ and frontdoor naked nfd 2. We get value fm weaker combo draws and 3. He doesn't share the fd with us and we therefore have a lot of equity against his draws that call and have us beat (30-40%... more often near-40%). To shove turn you'd have to be real sure he doesn't have 2p or set though.

On the river, without more reads, we don't have enuf info to narrow his range to AJ KJ and can't expect to profitably rai-bluff. Your tank-calls on the flop and turn don't help your story much either so now I just fold.

Last edited by bigoiltrader; 07-17-2012 at 03:07 PM.
bigoiltrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 03:46 PM   #15
soah
Unexpected
 
soah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 59,652
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinivici9586 View Post
i'm curious why people think this is such a snap fold.
you don't make your money in poker trying to bluff fish off of big hands
soah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 04:00 PM   #16
vinivici9586
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
vinivici9586's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,228
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

Quote:
Originally Posted by soah View Post
you don't make your money in poker trying to bluff fish off of big hands
obv, but he doesn't have to be big, and he might not be a huge fish. in my experience in live poker, i don't get paid off too often w/ the nuts here.

i do try and avoid spots where theres a %age chance my play is lighting money on fire, which this definitely is. he just might not have a fold button, and we don't have that read one way or the other.
vinivici9586 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2012, 12:47 AM   #17
dankness3
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,447
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

Man I really love this bluff but I think it depends a lot on how fishy he is. He almost never has a flush on the river and if he is capable of thinking at all he will see that its fairly easy for you to have one. I'm curious if you would also make this bluff with an over pair in this spot or if you would just call down?
dankness3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2012, 02:16 AM   #18
TimeBomb
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,656
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

River is fold. I would like to bluff river against players who I have seen play a little longer, and I would like to be a little deeper. I feel like there are too many fish who would play a big flush draw/combo draw exactly the same, although generally they will bet bigger here. I could easily see him showing up with 78/q10dd and various k and q high flushes. The times he doesn't have a flush he flops top2+ and feels he commited himself, pot too big etc and calls anyways. Most fish err on the side of not folding.
TimeBomb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2012, 08:53 AM   #19
jimmyvjv13
Life Grinder
 
jimmyvjv13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Repping Aces @ZepHendrix
Posts: 4,981
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

Quote:
Originally Posted by dankness3 View Post
I'm curious if you would also make this bluff with an over pair in this spot or if you would just call down?
I would call almost always when he bets this size.
jimmyvjv13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2012, 01:53 PM   #20
notontilt09
chopping down Ivey
 
notontilt09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Live Pro???????
Posts: 5,766
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

would be thrilled with the bluff if he had 5-6k behind... I just think he's gonna end up looking at the pot, realize it's only 2500 to win about 7500, and call far too often for this to be profitable.

Nothing wrong with just playing super straight forward against this guy. Fwiw I think calling down QQ+ vs this river size is probably slightly -EV, but a bit better than turning it into a bluff given effective stacks on the river.

But wtf do I know, they've clicked the correct button vs. me just about every big river spot this whole summer. So channel your inner nitontilt, and do the opposite.
notontilt09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2012, 08:16 PM   #21
AAismyfriend
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AAismyfriend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bluffing into dry sidepots
Posts: 11,838
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

Like a couple others have said, I would really like it if he had a bit more behind. I mean....it's really hard for you to bluffing here, and even this guy likely realizes that, but he's got so much in there already that he sigh calls off a bit too often to make shoving good here imo.
AAismyfriend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 02:50 PM   #22
jrr63
The Situation
 
jrr63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Saguaroland
Posts: 3,243
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

If you bluff enough to put him in he probably should fold everything but flushes. But it seems to me you don't know enough about him to know how much he values his stack - as others have said many loose calling station types who are not worried about the money may say "well you probably have me but I call" with his AJ or whatever. And of course he can have a flush himself - not how you'd expect a flush draw to be played by many Vs but again we don't know much about the guy.
jrr63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2012, 03:15 AM   #23
boredatheist2
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 74
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

I'm a losing 10/20 player so please disregard my advice.

I think your line is fine, but I don't like a river bluff against this player.

You're getting great odds on a bluff due to his funny sizing. Risking $3800 to win $5990 is a 1.58 to 1 payoff, so he only needs to fold 39% of the time for your bluff to be profitable.

But from his description and sizings, I gather that he doesn't play much poker and he just isn't experienced or thoughtful enough to lay down AJ here. I think his small sizing weights his range significantly towards TPTK-ish hands, which makes a bluff seem attractive at first glance. But his crappy play indicates that he's not good enough to realize that TPTK is a bluff catcher. He's emotionally invested, excited and confused, and he distinctly remembers thinking that he had a very good hand on the flop. And it's only a tiny bit more to call. I don't think you're getting 39% here.

And if it turns out that this guy is actually a decent player who is capable of folding TPTK here, then I still don't like a river bluff. Because if he's good, then his sizing isn't a tell at all. It's a trap.

So either way, I don't like a bluff.
boredatheist2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2012, 08:30 AM   #24
Andrew Boccia
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Real Estate Investing in Florida
Posts: 1,531
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

Not many flushes in your perceived range, There is not much XdXd that:
-wants to build the pot preflop
-doesn't absolutely smash this flop

Weaker draws like the one you have are much more frequent. Not sure if he even recognizes this or would think you slowplay huge draws OTF, but you can't rep what you want to rep against a lot of people.
Andrew Boccia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2012, 02:37 PM   #25
Andrew Song
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,546
Re: 10/20 Hero missed the world but wants to bruff

"V1: Foreign, not sure from where but speaks English despite it not sounding like his native language. Hasn't played many hands at all but seems kind fishy. Plays 5 hands then leaves for 20 minutes at a time. 6k"

I would not try to bluff this guy. Never bluff a man that's bored or busy specially when he put half his stack in.
Andrew Song is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online