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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 07-16-2012, 06:43 PM   #1
jimmyvjv13
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10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

10/20/40 at Aria. This hand is straddled but only about 1/3 of the people are straddling.

V1: Bruce from Horseshoe in Hammond. He's a rich businessman who is actually decent except for the fact that he is wayyyy too loose pre. I've seen him put a lot of chips in the pot with strong but not super strong hands when he thinks they're good, def not afraid to push all the chips in. 5500

V2: German who has busted his first 2k and reloaded and built it up to 8k, played really tight at first but now has been far more aggro now that he is deeper and he plays quite well. Made a hero fold 2k deep vs me with JJ (he said, and i believe) in the CO when he opened to 140 and i made it 380 otb with AA and bet 440 on 865ss flop and crammed the T turn on him. 7-8k

Hero: super loose, super aggressive, up about 10k on the session and playing a lot of hands. Been really friendly with V2 and know V1 pretty well, not sure if that plays much into the hand. 24k

Hero straddles, Hijack opens to 140, V1 calls otb, sb calls, V2 makes it 520 to go (first time he has 3b in 4 hours). I look down at KK, I think for a little while and flat because HJ and sb are both really tight and probably folding and bruce is never folding so I figure pretty often I get to play in position vs V2 and if I 4b I'm not sure how much action I get from V1 and don't really want to put 8k in pre vs him. Hero calls and best case scenario V1 calls and all else fold.

Flop 456

V1 leads 940
Hero tanks 30 seconds and calls
V2 tanks 10 seconds and goes all in for 4700 total
V1 tanks 4-5 minutes and calls, Let's assume 2300 behind

Hero?
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:10 PM   #2
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

you're up 10k but your stack is 24k? if this is the case, then your into the game for a few BI's (im assuming this, idk what the typical player sits with in these stakes). But if you are into the game a few BI's, what is your image as of late? Have you been spewy the last few hours? I know you said you have been super LAG, but have you been getting 2nd-bested or what? Maybe this will help some other conjure up their opinion. The highest i have ever played was 5-10-20 (only once at the Shoe) so i wont bother giving my hand analysis
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:35 PM   #3
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

No I was buying into these games for 10-15k because I didn't want to continuously add money should I downswing and most people were 10k deep and the deeper the better for me.
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Old 07-16-2012, 11:09 PM   #4
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

Did you switch the V1 and V2 starting stacks here?
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Old 07-16-2012, 11:35 PM   #5
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

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Originally Posted by dudebroIII View Post
Did you switch the V1 and V2 starting stacks here?
yea, either stacks are switched or V's are switched.
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Old 07-17-2012, 12:00 AM   #6
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

sorta confused, you say V1 calls otb then leads this flop?

i guess you mean V2 leads flop, you call, and then bruce shoves allin and then V2 just calls bruces shove?

if so, i think your def ahead of bruce although he prob has a hand w/ a ton of equity vs you but id still be happy to get it in vs him. V2 prob has a big pair here a lot since you say he doenst 3bet light (first time in 4 hrs), so i guess when he overcalls bruce he figures he has the best hand but is probably a little unsure about what you have so i def think your ahead of him too (unless he has AA but then thats just a cooler).

i think calling/shoving is fine and both are pretty close but shoving slightly better (i think id just overcall if i had KKw/ spade) so i dont mind a call here.
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:23 AM   #7
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

have to get it in here, ^^^ is right
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:50 AM   #8
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

this spot sucks hard. You are barely ahead of bruces range even if he has a lot of draws here. 67s, 87s, 8s9s, 4s3s?, AsXs, KsXs, all sets, 77, 33.

I'm more comfortable getting it in with the german's range, AA, KK, QQ, maybe JJ. I don't think he has a draw, cuz he tanked so long.

I'm too lazy to stove, but if you are getting more than 2 to 1, I guess it's a shove. and you have a chance to win the side pot even if you don't win the main pot.
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:45 AM   #9
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

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Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
i guess you mean V2 leads flop, you call, and then bruce shoves allin and then V2 just calls bruces shove?
this is what happened
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:12 PM   #10
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

I think the German is more likely to have QQ than AA because of his small 3bet pre (~800 would be standard IMO) and tanking a really long time. He can also have some goofy SC or something but not often. I think we're slightly ahead of both players so I'd just get the money in.
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:25 PM   #11
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

They are almost never both on draws with the German as described, right? I would not put a huge discount on AA for the German based on pre raise size given that he's sort of short-stacking; if anything, the German's turn call says AA more than QQ.

So you're maybe 50-50/55-45 with the German, with Bruce either having a set or straight already or a draw with 35-50% equity against you.

No backdoor flush for you, either. Think the math says this is a narrow fold. This is like getting quartered in O8.
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:50 AM   #12
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

I don't think German dude is tanking 4-5 mins with AA+, so I shove despite not having much of a clue what's going on in the hand. This sounds like the ****tiest logic ever for not folding in a ~20k pot, but I feel v1 is going to show mostly draws a 2p hands, and we are ahead of German dude a lot as well and possibly have him dominated. You may also be in 3rd place that wouldn't suprise me at all, but I think the times v1 is drawing + you having v2 dominated for 2300 of the 7000 you put in the hand (lose the hand and only be down 2400? not too shabby) makes this a reluctant but clear call.
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:48 PM   #13
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

I shove.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:43 PM   #14
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyvjv13 View Post
this is what happened
I agree it's hard to believe the German just flats Bruce's shove with AA or better with you behind him. Given your description of Bruce, who you know well, I'm in the shove camp.
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:33 AM   #15
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

It is wishful thinking to put him on a draw. You said V1 was good so I assume he knows he has no fold equity with this much action. On a draw, he would flat to draw as cheap as possible. Furthermore, V1 being loose pre makes it even more likely he has a straight or set and on a drawy board he shoves to protect his equity in what's already a huge pot. I also think you are behind V2 a lot. This is a bad spot. I think it is really really tough one to fold but it is correct to do so. you aren't losing much in the long run by folding here.
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:16 PM   #16
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

I'm a losing 10/20 player, so please disregard my advice.

This hand confuses me a lot. Stacking off with just one pair against these two, this deep, sounds super gross to me. I spent like twenty minutes trying to find a fold on every street. But I couldn't find one anywhere. Strange.

Preflop, I think call > fold > raise. Stacking off with a live nit preflop this deep sounds quite bad to me. And 4bet/fold sucks too, so there's not much left.

On the flop, after the nit bets, I very tentatively think call > fold > raise.

If the nit had called quickly after the rich guy shoved, I'd probably fold. But when he tanks for so long, I'd shove and feel pretty good about it.

I'd be happy to know the results.
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Old 07-22-2012, 04:40 PM   #17
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

fold--even if your are somehow ahead, there are soo many draws out there and two players chasing. If you had the K it would be closer, but still lean to a fold.
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Old 07-22-2012, 08:13 PM   #18
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

Surprised that so many people are happy to get it in here. Hero looks very strong after his flop call and two non-terrible players are still willing to put the rest of their money in. Pretty easy to have 7% equity here and you're pretty much crossing your fingers and praying to even have 50%. V1 can have all of the hands that nail this flop and the fact that he's super loose preflop yet still decent overall tells us he's not making a habit of just spazzing out with stupid **** all the time in spots where he's likely up against two strong hands.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:12 PM   #19
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

This seems like a fold here. Bruce isnt donking air here, so if he doesnt have a set, he still is ahead or has good equity. And then the fact that V2 hand looks more like AA than jj/qq, this is just a fold.
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Old 07-25-2012, 04:31 PM   #20
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

Results:

Spoiler:
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:04 AM   #21
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

if you think he's calling with QQ then you shouldn't be too surprised that he calls with 88 -- 88 has much more equity against that range than QQ

Last edited by soah; 07-26-2012 at 02:05 AM. Reason: and he'd have to think you're atrocious to expect you to overcall with JJ-99
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:25 AM   #22
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

I just don't think German dude ever has you beat, and the difference in chips allows you to get it in so much easier than if German dude folds since Bruce can beat you and you don't lose too much. I hope you at least took the time to stroke German dudes ego.
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:06 AM   #23
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

I think it's a lot closer than you're range made it look. I thought that bruce would be having slightly over 50% equity but 62% I'm shocked. I didn't know bruce is capable of having 87o 65o, type hands, but you know him, I don't. You also need to put in 33 and possibly 88 in his range and Ts9s. and some two three gapper spades if he calls 87o then Qs9s Js8s works too right? J9s 97s hands. I really think you're range is a little off.

I don't think you are flipping with german dude. I think you are ahead of his range especially since he tanked for so long. and this makes it a different stove where you have to stove you're equity for main pot and the side pot as well.
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:15 PM   #24
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

yeah im not folding. german can have QQ+ and draws and your at the very top of your range...
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Old 07-27-2012, 08:35 AM   #25
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Re: 10/20/40 KK in big pot in tough spot

Quote:
Originally Posted by soah View Post
if you think he's calling with QQ then you shouldn't be too surprised that he calls with 88 -- 88 has much more equity against that range than QQ
I don't understand this. First off, I didn't even think 88 was in his range, he 3b for the first time literally in 4 hours or so, and he was OOP, I thought his range was super strong here. I was shocked that he had 3b with that hand from that position, not shocked that he called Bruce with it with me behind since I have to fold a ton of strong hands there when he does that.
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