to verify all this people should look at the pokerparadime variance calc

This one will do too.

http://www.castrovalva.com/~la/win.htm

not sure what you mean by checkraising 100% of aces. You are saying you are going to xc xc xr with TP of aces? Of if the river was an ace? Because in our example hand, the river with a 3rd flush and board pairing card.

Also the situation is much more complicated. so your plan is to float OOP flop and turn so if an ace comes on the river you can checkraise? Or are you turning every weaker pair hand in to a bluff there too?

And obviously if i see you checkraising here i can adjust too (with 3bet bluffs being particularly profitable).

also we aren't folding all aces. We have the weakest ace, our kicker doesn't play. If our kicker played I would never fold the river, not least because some opps will slowplay any Ax to the river, so we beat some value hands, but also so that, as you say, we aren't folding all 1-pair hands.

the situation isnt at all snap obvious given the way the board came. if you are floating to the river to checkraise then that seems like a pretty unprofitable strat, altho neither of us have run any numbers

I'm checking back 4x here, in my vbetting range I'm calling 1pair AT+, and 2pair+, given that it's pretty expensive for you to flota to the river to hope for a good bluff card (the 3 hearts completes an obvious draw and weakens our hand against trips - i'm not betfolding A2 on many other river cards), i really isn't clear to me how you can just say "I mean it goes without saying hood". Saying "but if u can get someone to fold top pair with any consistency at all they will absolutely be crushed at LHE" is vastly trivialising the matter.

im not saying that im doing this every hand waitng for an ace to come off so i can cr that would be silly

Im saying that if i ever get to the river for whatever reason... and an ace comes on a dryish board like that and i feel i dont have enough SD value im cring 100% and showing insane profits because you wont even call me with top pair. You literally will fold everything but a better two pair... how is this not exploitable.

our kicker not playing is almost irrelevant due to a lack of a 3b from villain

dont even lie though you arent folding this ace ever haha lets just be truthful at least

also to be fair i am folding this ace v rarely but not against this opponent that copoka (hopefully accurately describes) as very aggressive

very aggressive and and most likely angry.

Are we still talking about different hands?! There was no ace on the river.

And my main point was there are few combos you can get to the river with that you would turn in to a bluff. We can't really say "get to the river for what ever reason" because the only draw got in there, and it's an ace high board. Unless you are turning large parts of your value range in to a river bluff, then you just wont get to the river often enough to have a bluff to 'exploit' me folding a weak ace.

That's the whole point. Of course we aren't making a habit of folding top pair to a river checkraise. But there's few hands you can actually get to the river with an then bluff on this specific board texture.

Honestly I think we are discussing two totally different situations.

yeah i know the hand where the guy ran trips i know

i referenced it wrong

ya i made a mistake but i knew the dynamic of the hand whatever this is irrelevant u gaise are ******ed hah omg stop folding ur aces on the river in general people notice this and exploit it to the point where that 1 in 8 (actually more like 15-20% for the times u chop to a value raise) becomes more and more realistic. I definitely bluffraise big "folders" off high cards at a frequency that would exploit that tendency were it to be a hard and fast rule. Copoka has described him as very aggressive so either that isnt correct or it is and im going to unfortunately showdown my pair of aces for ONE bet on the river in limit holdem (lol imo).

In this specific case though since you asked given the hyper aggro read I say you split at least 40 combos of his value raise range ( the two remaining aces combined with the 20 other cards in the deck that dont top ur aces or give him two pair including suits)
you lose to a ton of combos that honestly i am too lazy to math up right now but when u combine it with hyperaggros trying to push u off

but you also beat potentially a very significant bluffrange

That being said if this guy doesn't bluffraise / value raise here ever I might find a fold... maybe I read this wrong but copoka said hyper aggro then again who knows what hes even talking about here to be honest hes into these grandiose mathematical forumulae ITT so who knows

FWIW, I am finding playing 8 game while waiting for HULHE action tons of fun and profitable over a short sample. Players are HORRENDOUS at the fixed limit games and don't seem to be great at the big bet games. I just totally nutpeddle PLO and NL and am amazed at the trash people pay off in in the FL games.

Just thought I would share - this has kept me much more sane than obsessing over how bad HULHE is while waiting for action.

So an aggressive opponent goes check-call, check-call, check-raise with a flopped top pair of aces?

Seriously it's like you didn't read any of my responses and your reply is based around an arguement of, "lol folding top pair in hu limit"

If you don't want to discuss the hand that's cool, but I would appreciate it that you didn't engage in a discussion of the hand then just ignore any responses.

edit: here's that hand again for reference. Again my main point is based around not being many combinations of hands to turn in to bluffs on the river. Against a good aggro player, the only hand combos that make sense here are flush draws with SDV (Kx and Qx), something like K3 and Q3. Maybe he's trying to get fruity and turn say 4x or 22 in to a bluff here, or is turning Kx in to a bluff, but they are both heavily discounted. There's also 24 and 25 there too, but given the read we expect them to be checkraised on flop or turn most of the time (turns out our read could be off, but that doesn't change things).

I'm with OTR saying that we are good here like 1 time in 20.

I think it's an interesting hand indeed, but if you arguement is just "lol so exploitable folding tp of aces" i don't think the discussion is going to get anywhere. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Pre Flop: (1.333 SB) Hero is BTN/SB with A 2
Hero raises, BB calls

Flop: (4 SB) 4 A 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

Turn: (3 BB) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

River: (5 BB) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls

aggro ppl slowplay too obviously

and you are dismissing my point about not folding aces regularly in HULHE for one bet on the river entirely by just calling it cliche

it makes sense

think about it

you will get run the **** over often by an aggressive, thinking opponent (as copoka describes). Hes getting a damn good price on that bluff and after a while of playing he will pick up on it. I know you want to focus on the specific hand here completeley, but I'm talking metagame here, at thats damn important.

and you also miss out on 40 combos of chops

thats my argument, i could be wrong but i havent heard anyone even address this so...

and also

i love how everoyne always ends their arguments with

"if you dont want my advice then dont post"

This is a psuedo intellectual way of saying im right and your wrong just because

im having an argument with you about something, a pretty mild argument at that, and you seem so averse to confrontation that you think i somehow still dont want to continue the conversation

edit the title of the thread, or create another thread to discuss the kind of stuff that is being discussed here! PLEASE!

I didn't say "if you dont want my advice dont post". I didn't say anything of the sort... x I said "If you don't want to discuss the hand that's cool, but". I'm not adverse to confrontation. It just felt like you were repeating the same thing and not really responding to my counterpoints. I think i made all this clear in my last post though, sorry it if was confusing.

(Actually, your main argument up to now was that folding here is really exploitable because you would "start to bluff raise here all the time if I could get you to fold top pair". I responded and said what hands are you bluffing here on the river, how frequently do you float-float-bluff checkraise on dry board here? or what hands do you turn in to bluffs? you haven't responded to this bit, hence my frustration previously because you ignored my line of debate here)

On to this argument: Given the read, I would so heavily discount these combinations because so often (i would say at least 95% of the time), hands that we chop with do not take a xc xc xr line. It is a very rare line by a good aggressive player, even on a dry board like this. We can dispute the 95% ... if you were playing me, my % would be more like 99.9%. if I dived in to my database it could only find a very small number where I take this line, and it's because of specific reads. *never* part of my deffault plan.

So I would reduce your 40 combinations down to, say, 2 combinations. And we then halve that because we are calling for a chop.

[i'm going out for the evening now, so i might not respond again til tomoz]

haha after you posted this i played seven game HU for the first time and instantly lost 200 dollars

fair

but ill keep calling this down against maniacs bc its worked so far

So I am sorry, maybe I didn't read the whole thread and missed what I was looking for, my upfront apologies if this the case....
However, Jarnov brought up a thread where an expert, top-of-the-line-world-class-player played exactly the same hand exactly the same way as copoka did. And then some of the best posters on this forum discussed it without pointing out any major flaws in the way it was played.

Hood and OTR, where are your apologies for bashing copoka? That's what I was looking for and failed to find.

My comments stand. I think it's a losing play. Experts play hands incorrectly too, you know. I also fail to see where I "bashed" copoka. I think you're confusing criticism with "bashing"


I think it's pretty clear that copoka has a fair number of leaks both in his game and in his mentality, even if he doesn't agree. I will never apologize for posting my opinion of a hand, which is all I did here.

If anything I am pretty sure I am owed an apology by copoka for his attitude throughout the entire conversation.

^^^^

on the above note id say some HU4rollz action is due

Who do you think you are to speak about other's mentalities? I actually think that YOU have a leak (and not a small but rather a big one) in your mentality which is all about "I am always right since I am a God in LHE". I read a big chunk of your FOS haughty blogs, and they all are quite a proof to this leak of yours. Yeah, you're skilled player, no doubt about it. I am sure as hell, however, that the amount of luck that you used to run uphill so fast was just as key as your skill was. Good for you, that's indeed your number one poker achievement. Here's a quote from a good book on stock market, but this is very much relevant to poker as well:
"There's something very reductive about the stock market. You can be right for the wrong reasons and wrong for the right reasons, but to the market (...or poker) you're just plain right or wrong. Compare this to the story of the teacher who asks if anyone can name two pronouns. When no one volunteers, the teacher calls on Tommy who responds, 'Who,me?'. To the market, Tommy is right and therefore, despite being unlikely to get an A in English, he's rich".
Always remember, OTR, you easily might have been that Tommy so far (as many other "top" players could be). Good for Bryce he's smart enough to understand it and quit on time. So really, cool off already.

Let me tell you something about copoka though. This guy CAN teach you a thing or two. Same applies to Hood - you can learn a ton from copoka. You just fail to listen. I was just as arrogant and cocky a year ago when I started talking to him first. He was nice enough to handle me and share his valuable advice until I was lucky enough to get through it. Now, a year later, I am $60K richer. No kidding here. TYVM.

"except me, OTR the great"

Since when is trying to help someone with their game and talk some strat considered "bashing"? Any bashing, if you really saw it as that (at best i would say "light joshing"), came well after copey replied pretty aggressively and defensively to quite friendly advice.

In the linked hand, I disagree with the way the "top-of-the-line-world-class-player" played that hand. Maybe he did it with a read (see posts at teh end of the thread), maybe it was a mistake by him, maybe it wasn't and I am wrong. I still disagree having read the arguments in this thread and the old one.

$5/$10 Limit Holdem
Stacks:
Hood ($391)
BB ($375)

Pre-Flop: (1.4 SB, 2 players) Hood is BTN 7 10
Hood calls zomgwtf open limp, BB raises, Hood calls

Flop: 3 10 4 (4.0 SB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hood raises, BB 3-bets, Hood calls

Turn: 3 (5.0 BB, 2 players)
BB folds

Thanks a lot for a kind words. I don't think i deserve that much though.
All credit is to you and I'm really proud of you. You did, not me.
And you have much bigger years ahead of you, believe me
My part was small though. I just guided you a bid. And it was a pleasure doing so.

As about this issue over here.

It's over. Case is closed.
If in a heat of the battle, so to speak, I have offended anyone in any way - my apologies.

Not sure where this hostile attitude is coming from? I suppose you're right that it's possible that I'm the lottery winner among high stakes winning lhe players, but it's far far far far more likely that I'm not and that you guys can both learn something from me.

I'll keep taking advice from the guys who's games and attitudes I respect. If you don't like my tone when I talk strat, I suppose that's fine. You don't have to listen to it. Maybe I'm not the most humble guy in the world, but last I checked being humble is not the hallmark of people who are successful in most fields.

Find one place where I said that I think that I'm always right? If you can link a place where I said that, I'll give you $1000 and never post on 2p2 again. In fact, I'm constantly reevaluating what I think about certain plays and players. Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument though. Just because I'm confident in my convictions and my game doesn't mean that I think I'm a "god of lhe" and am always right. My results show that I'm right more than the average guy and until luck balances out (maybe in the next 500k hands?) it's going to have to stay that way.

Also lol at you for bringing up my blog where I talk strat about 1 out of 10 posts? Do you even know what haughty means? Jesus.

wow this little argument about the a 9 cr river range turned into something really really sad

armor is so stuck up right now

so stupid bragging to the ppl in this forum about ur 60k too. cool u won a bunch of money so did everyone else here bro likely much more

I disagree with OTR on that one hand but wtf he never said anything ridiculous or didnt answer a question he was pretty thorough on his reasoning, wrote multiple posts and i just disagree with him.

impassioned argument is fine but your personal criticism of someone so helpful (whos even put out work for deuces cracked) is just shameful even for twoplustwo

be grateful for the little support this forum has armor