Nah, you has to be wrong here.

OTR has spoken.

He said top pair has 1 chance in 20 against hyper aggressive and agree individual.
So it must be so.

I do benefit from knwoing your hand, that's true. If I didn't know your hand I wouldn't know whether you made a good bet or a bad one. But as it is, I know you made a bad bet.

lol

You're right. It might be less.

Do you have a stove?

Please take random range, take away all aces, put the board As 5s 3c in and stove it vs Qd 7d. Then come back with results.

I dont even know how to respond here.

You want to take away all aces why?

So, now when you know all there is to know about that hand, you are saying that betting Q7 vs 74 is not such a hot idea?

Just to finish the whole thing off.

Let me take back my advise about brushing up basics.
I have much better advise.

Please stop playing poker for now and hire OTR as a coach.
That would be a best dessision of your poker life up to date.
You will benefit greatly and some day, i'm sure, will send me a flowers or something as a token of aprecciation.

Its so hard for him to have one playing any 2.

lol ive been watching this whole argument as ive been tilt posting

u are insane

....

I mean on a flop, ofc.

Once i see the A on a flop its a very good assumption, that its hard for him to have an A if he plays any 2.
Basically, I'm quoting Bryce here.
Should I dig up an exact qoute and situation? I will.

but thats the whole thing about ranges... you have to include it as part of his range even if its not likely he has it. Just as you wouldn't discount any other card.

LOL @ copoka....OTR i don't know why you even waste your time man.

Why?
Why discounting is out of question?

Ok, maybe not 100%.

As an extreme. Would not you cap every street with KK if flop came AAA?

The fact that there is an A on the flop makes it 25% less likely that he holds an ace in his hand ... but poker stove already takes this into account. It is kind of the whole point of stove. You input a range of possible hands that your opponent could conceivably play this way and poker stove determines your equity (partly by discounting cards that are on the flop). You don't take the aces out of your hand first.

I see.

So it is for equity calculation of the ORIGINAL range i give him.
And plays i might chose based based on what i put him on with new information is another issue.
Right?

well seeing as you haven't chosen value or bluffing as the point of your checkraise there doesn't seem to be much of a comparison

I can say that in the AAA hand i am going for value, and wont stop until I feel that I am no longer ahead based on various things. Against some players I will slow down absolutely. Actually against very few players will i cap that for 3 streets.

But for your q7 hand I think that you havent chosen if you are going for value or to take him off a worse hand. Either way you can't discount the ace more than u would the 5 when u are stoving something... seems obvious


But you say that you just want to take him off the hand, and I think OTR's whole spiel is kinda a bout the idea of not making mistakes against your opponents range. You are just kind of doing the classic first level thinking mistake where you aren't even thinking about what hands you will be folding out or getting value out of. Its those circumstances that really affect your bottom line in the end.

You can show down q hi by the way there is no rule against it, as a matter of fact showing down q hi will cost just 1sb more than c/r and barreling the turn. Just food for thought.


And by the way I am not on the anti copoka train, I still think you are right on the first hand to be reasonably tenacious with the ace against all but the most face up opponents. Its just so exploitable honestly and i know its a cliche but it is limit hold em and you have an ace with a likely chop or you lose/beat a bluff.

:facepalm

OMG this is amazing.

TY for your comments.
Equity calculation point is well taken and appreciated.

As far as whole issue here, it all seems a bit strange.

I honestly dont remember ever seeing anyone folding in a situation like hand 1
and yet sophisticated argument is given why it is such an wrong play.

C'raises like in a hand #2 are all over training sites and forums with, at very least, metagame consideration label on them or, depending on who poster or coach is, marked as sophisticated plays. New era thinking, so to speak.

Here, from small mistakes it has been blown up to a reason I cant get out of ugly break even stretch.

Life time ev in both cases, given the relative rarity and deferent chances and equities vs different playing styles, is negligible one way or another, but chance to showcase superior poker wisdom is taken and at the end it looks like breaking cardinal rules or something.

In fact, we are talking really small margins here.

Really small margins considering that after certain threshold in the game, the turn of a card will make so much larger impact on a bottom line than whether you make or lose 4.6 bets over 1000 hands due to finer understanding of a super fine aspects or lack thereof.

Not exactly the same, when you have A2 your opponent was floating with Q2s less often. If you were just saying that neverwin isn't bluffing in this spot, that's disappointing

fwiw, i puked a little for you on the diamond frush hand.

/not smart or good enough to get involved in the rest of this thread.

hey copoka how many hands is ur b/e stretch

about 100k

Basically and unfortunately, just the way you describe.
No way to win.
Rather noway to win a large pot.
I call it unbalanced coolers.
If I flop srt8 and win I make 3 times less than I lose when I flop str8 and lose etc.
Faking enormous drag. And I try to be very objective about it, believe me.

I wish you never go that far in it.

I think he's bluffing sometimes. Just not more than 1 time in 8.