Different game. In Leon's preferred game, 9/7 TDB holding four to the flush yields a return of 1.47 and holding three to the royal yields a return of 1.29

Even in 9/6 DDB holding the four yields a 1.28 return and holding the 3 to the royal yields a 1.26 return.

The big difference is what the flush pays. In an 8/5 game it is only paying 5 credits whereas in a 9/7 or 9/6 game it is paying 7 or 6 credits respectively.

Thanks in part to Leon, I now play TDB instead of DDB. Happily giving up some $ on the 3 of a kinds, in exchange for the much larger A234w/kicker hits..

Thanks. In addition, the exact 3 to a royal cards makes a difference. Eg, jqk is better than 10JA. I believe in TDB JQK is so strong (given you only get 10 for trips) that it's better to play JQK than a pair of jacks.

Don't forget the 2,3,4 w/kicker hits as well! That's almost more satisfying- 800 jumps to 2000, a 2.5x increase, vs 2000 to 4000 (comparing DDB to TDB).

Yes, that's what I meant by "A234 w/kicker", and you are right the Four 234 w/kicker that pays 2000 feels almost as good as the Four A w/kicker that pays 4000, since the jump is actually higher, compared to DDB.

I hit several 4 Aces (no kicker) over the weekend, and that kind of tilted me since AAAA pays the same as 2222/3333/4444 w/kicker in DDB, but in TDB it pays significantly less..

Whoops, reading comp fail by me.

Yes, play TDB long enough and you start to regard those premium quads without kickers for what they really are... misses. You need the kickers to have any shot of longevity or a monster win. Quad aces are simply a near-miss, a wouldacouldashoulda, or more pushes on the machine

Stu, did you find a good place to play? The TDB I found at low stakes was not so great and I had long cold spells. It seems like if I want to play TDB I need deep pockets or early luck, both of which are in short supply.

There's going to be an article in some kind of gambling times magazine called "The rise of triple double bonus" after this thread lol. Tdb is definitely one of my favorites, but so is super double double and super times pay.

And yeah, if Tdb goes cold, money can go fast. I've lost a grand playing single line quarters in one sitting before, so it was like 5 or 6 hours or so. But when it starts hitting, man that's a fun game

Sure, but you can say that about anything!

Super double double is definitely fun, but I have yet to find any machine approximating a decent paytable. My local casino has a couple machines but they're terrible. Nothing at the Wynn as far as I can tell.

STP, the few times I've played it, has been positively maddening. Small sample size but I've definitely run cold in that game, can never seem to get a good multiplier to line up with a good hand, etc. It seems like the combined chance of getting a multiplier (even with double STP) and a premium hand is just SO low. I think I'd rather play UX and basically "know" I'm going to have multipliers out there if that premium hand comes along.

I hear you on that. The super double double in tunica i play is 7/5 and still pays 15 on trips, and i love getting those k,q,j,A w,k,q,j,a for 800. But that full house kills ya im sure.

Youre definitely right on the stp. I've even had times that i dont want the multiplier to pop up and mess up my draw lmao. Ive played maybe, a total of 40 hours on it i guess? And havent hit much. I had 4 aces no kicker times 8, 22223 times 3, aaaa2 times 2 and kkkk times 10, and thats it, other than full houses times 10. Its actually more fun to just play regular triple or 5 line

Awesome 3k hit man

Well, you've certainly hit more than what I have on STP. Way more actually. The times I've played I actually play DSTP for the additional multiplier chance. Best I've made, and only hand pay, was 22223 for 800 credits, x 4 multiplier = 3200 credits = 1600$ at the 50c level. Second best was a dealt full with a 5x multiplier on the "draw" (even though I held everything, it still gives you a chance at a multiplier). I've clearly put way more than that into the game.

Now that I think about it, I've simply had a shortage of premium hands in the game. There's been jack and **** to have multiplied haha.

It seems like it almost always goes like that. It will give me a times 10 before the deal and then deal me 5 cards that are such garbage i have to throw them all away lol. and yeah, dstp is what i mainly play when i play it, i forgot to mention that.

ultimate X is obviously top notch for this big hit stuff, but i play quarters and on 5 line thats 12.50 a spin, and usually go with about a 2-3k bankroll. its easy to get broke quick like that. End up in the room eating comped desserts lmao

ive learned so much about vp in this thread lol. That hand analyzer on woo is awesome

Leon U Bitch!

Everytime I think about you making 2 RF's outa 5 one-card draws at it I go into a mildly psychotic rage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I drew one card to a RF on a 100-play machine I will guarandamtee you I wouldn't even hit ONE; much less the 2 I am rated to hit....You, on the other hand, to extrapolate your 2 outa 5 result, would hit FORTY.
Where are the damn emojiis when I need them
SFB

hey Leon what do you hold in tdb when dealt Ac Qc and three other garbage cards. woo says to hold the A and Q, and by a pretty good margin. I always just hold the Ace, figuring drawing three more aces and a kicker would be easier(lol) then getting the other three to a royal, but it looks like ive been wrong, and ive been playing this wrong for years. I also do this on double double, and so that looks way wrong.

also, for years now if i get dealt KKQQ5, i just hold one pair, going for quads, and that hand analyzer says this is the biggest mistake ive been making. Ive been playing this stuff wrong for the past 10 years lol.

edit-yeah, i guess i just thought about it and when holding the A and Q and going for the royal, you need three exact cards, and when holding one ace, you need three exact cards plus one of 12 other cards, so the royal is more likely i guess

I hold both high cards as WOO says, and two pair in your other example as well. In other words, I basically play by the book/highest expectation.

The way you have to think about it is, "which play gives me the best expectation overall"? The reason A Q is so much better is the chance of making a straight, paying pair, flush, etc- all the other hands which you're forgetting about. It's not just "chance of a royal" vs "chance of 4 aces". The chance of either of those is so low, that's not what is going to make the difference here in the long run. What matters more are the vast majority of times you're going to make something "else", and that chance is vastly improved by holding AQ.

There was a brief time I used to hold just one (paying) pair vs two pair as in your example as well. I stopped once I looked at the math and realized that your chances of turning a pair into quads are pretty low, and even then most of the time it's "only" 250 credits. Much better to take the much higher likelihood of making a full, survive and move on to the next hands in the hopes they'll be premium.

About the only example I can think of where holding just a pair like kings instead of two pair may be correct is that "Shockwave" version of the game. If you didn't know, basically if you make quads, you then have ten hands to make quads again. If you do, the quads pay as much as a royal! So once you're in shockwave mode, it makes sense from an expectation standpoint to play very aggressively for quads. Two pair is no good- you have ZERO chance of quads. Stuff like that.

Awesome man thanks. I'm going to make these changes to my game. I've been doing this wrong for so long, my whole life could have been different lol jk

I really enjoyed your TRs, thanks for sharing

Just came back from a weekend at the Orleans. Yeah, it's not a fancy place, but it is video poker heaven. Tons of machines, including some weird ones I've never seen anywhere else. Can't trust the labeling though, they had games described as Bonus Poker that definitely did not have a BP paytable.

They had Dream Card all over the place. I wanted to try it but not risk a lot of money, so I tried 10 cent credits first. Of course, binked a royal at 10 cents. Hard to complain much, winning 400 bucks, but still wish it was 4000. Not a big fan, you have to make double-sized bets and it seems like the dream card trips almost never improve to boats or quads.

Other Orleans tidbits:

They had full pay BP in some bartops. But honestly, the drink service is so good out on the floor, it's probably better than at the bars. And you won't get any attitude from the bartenders, whom I swear sometimes act like they are buying the liquor out of their own pockets.

Saw a progressive $1 bank, with $6k+ for a royal. I was somewhat drunk the first night I found it and couldn't find it again the next day.

They had progressive banks paying 24,000+ credits on a dealt Royal.

Leon, if you're looking for a bankroll builder, schedule your flight to detour to San Jose for 3 days first, then hit the 40/80 at Bay 101. You'll probably have an extra couple three grand when you get to Vegas.

The Orleans sounds awesome. I think they also have wheel poker, where if you get quads, you spin a wheel for money I think. That sounds crazy fun to me

That's good to know. If we ever venture to another place I'll check it out for sure! Do you happen to know if the dreamcard was multiline, what the min/max denomination was, if they had TDB and if so what the paytable was?

If you like Dreamcard TDB check out Red Rock. They have 25c to $5 9/5 TDB I believe. 3 5 or 10 play.

Ummm...

Yes, pretty sure dream card was multi-line. They had it in several different machines. The pay table seemed like it was not full pay though. I played some TDB and some dream card but can't remember if I did both at the same time. I was playing penny stakes, like 10 to 25 cents. I'm not sure if the stakes get high enough for you. Maybe in the high limit room. Most of the machines on the main floor were .25 to $1 max. I saw some $2 machines in high limit but I didn't look around much.

Searching pay tables is a bit of a pain though. Instead of checking 25 machines like in most casinos, they have 2 or 3 or 4 hundred machines. You'll want to take notes when you find a good one so you don't forget where they are.

What's the word Leon? You got the next trip booked yet?

For those interested in trying out all variations of video poker, go to video poker dot com. It's exquisite, with daily, weekly, monthly freerolls.