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Old 03-10-2019, 10:31 PM   #1
leon
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Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Hi everyone, many of you probably know me from my ongoing video poker TR at the Wynn, thread below-

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-last-1629103/

My intention in this thread is to separately document the negative changes the Wynn has made to their video poker paytables and offerings, as well as to update everyone on the status, negotiations, etc. I will specifically be referencing this thread in my discussions with Operations at the Wynn.

So, please feel free to offer thoughts and comments. I'm hopeful the people at the Wynn see fit to restore things to how they were based on community feedback. If anyone knows any Wynn employees who might be interested in this feedback, please direct them here.

The current situation-
- for years, the Wynn has been one of the few places on the strip to offer multiple full pay tables and full pay machines- at least 5-6 depending on the game. Most machines, of course, were still non-optimal, like most of the strip properties.
- as of sometime Jan-Feb 2019, they removed most full pay machines, changed the paytables on others, leaving a grand total of two machines in hi limit
- I have communicated with my host, as have other regulars. I am currently about to embark in a back and forth with operations.

My main point is that by offering more full pay machines, the Wynn gets the best of all worlds. They will continue to get action from the majority of clientele who don't have a clue, AND they will get increased action from those of us that understand and appreciate a good paytable. We're still happy to lose our money, we'll just lose it more slowly. The Wynn is taking a "skin the sheep" as opposed to shear approach.

Thanks
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Old 03-11-2019, 01:41 AM   #2
pig4bill
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Some beancounter gave a Powerpoint on how they could make $X more by changing the pay tables, yadda, yadda. You might have to vote with your feet and play elsewhere. You may not get all the benefits that you get at the Wynn, but your level of play will certainly get you lots of nice comps.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:22 AM   #3
oldert
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

This brings a scene to mind in wich clooney steals the high rollers. Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Good luck on this Leon.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:59 AM   #4
leon
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

I'm prepared to lose this one, but not without a fight. Hopefully this can be "win Wynn", so to speak, as opposed to lose lose.
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:20 AM   #5
Bdywax
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

i respect your fight, but unfortunately it will all come down to numbers. Actually, it already did. What’s worse is I doubt they will lose that many players and they know that. I mean look at Vegas as a whole. Odds have just gotten worse and worse for players, but yet people keep coming. People like you and your parents who love the Wynn will have a hard time moving. I mean you might because you are an optimal player, but what % of players are really optimal players? You’ve already said that your dad isn’t, and he plays higher limits than you do.

Again, I hope you win. Mostly because I would like to see the little guy win against Vegas, but also because I love reading your reports. I was going to play your machines when I’m there for March Madness, but I’m definitely not now. Be sure and share that with them as well.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:14 AM   #6
surftheiop
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Which casino do you plan to change to if they don’t improve? Presumably having something specific in mind would help your case.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:37 AM   #7
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Did you already approach other regular players? If you get a couple guys together, that might create a lot more pressure than walking the road alone.

I doubt there’s a chance to get them to reverse the changes, but you might be able to get additional comps or promo money to offset your loss. That way the Wynn keeps you as customers while also making that extra money from everyone else.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:12 PM   #8
WichitaDM
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Obviously will be rooting for you to win here but I would be shocked if you are successful. The Wynn realized they weren't making any money off of people playing $1 full pay video poker after the comps and mostly scrapped it.

Add in the fact that it looks like $1 full pay VP players were getting overcomped and something was eventually going to change.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:30 PM   #9
MatthewNL
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

There isn't really any other option of somewhere to play with those paytables at that denom. Wynn changing this is basically the final nail in the coffin of Video Poker play in Vegas.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:40 PM   #10
leon
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
Did you already approach other regular players? If you get a couple guys together, that might create a lot more pressure than walking the road alone.

I doubt there’s a chance to get them to reverse the changes, but you might be able to get additional comps or promo money to offset your loss. That way the Wynn keeps you as customers while also making that extra money from everyone else.
I encouraged all the regulars to complain and speak to their hosts, at this point I can only hope they follow through.

I might be pinning too much on this, but the fact that they reversed the double odds craps idiocy gives me hope. Then again, that's EV neutral so different beast.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:11 PM   #11
YoungManCoffee
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Greed and bottom-line thinking (skinning vs. shearing) has utterly ruined Vegas.

I'm just a 1/3 poker player and $15 blackjack peasant, but I'm old enough to remember when the casino had patience and didn't just hold you upside down by the ankles til all your money fell out. For us low stakes guys, we've been feeling this kind of corporate squeeze for some time now with all the resort fees and nickel/diming.

Your VP thread is great, hope this isn't the end of it. Good luck to you.
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:12 PM   #12
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

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Originally Posted by YoungManCoffee View Post
Greed and bottom-line thinking (skinning vs. shearing) has utterly ruined Vegas.
Yet it's just as busy as always, isn't it? I only get to go once a year and, at least when I'm there, it seems as busy as always.

If, IF, that's the case then it would appear the bean counters are doing their job by increasing profit without increasing sales, so to speak.
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:24 PM   #13
YoungManCoffee
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

I didn't say it ruined its economic feasibility. It's ruined the quality of experience for people who aren't interested in shopping luxury brands or getting wasted in da club.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:06 PM   #14
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

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Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
Yet it's just as busy as always, isn't it? I only get to go once a year and, at least when I'm there, it seems as busy as always.

If, IF, that's the case then it would appear the bean counters are doing their job by increasing profit without increasing sales, so to speak.
I'll continue to choose Vegas as a holiday destination but would favor properties that offer better odds.
Some of the negative changes over the Strip continue to make Downtown more attractive for more and more players.
I just hope Downtown properties use their momentum to improve on what's already a decent balance of choice/quality/price without following suit on the Strip greed culture.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:59 PM   #15
typesick
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Was just gambling at the Wynn 2 days ago. I played a fair amount of video poker with my girlfriend, but we will definitely avoid playing it at the Wynn in the future now that I'm aware that pay tables are no longer as good.
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:28 PM   #16
leon
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Update- was given a contact in Operations by my host. Sent him a long email. My host emails me back today and says he'll contact me tomorrow when I'm in the office.

?

I scroll down and see, in order-
- operations guy sends email to other operations guys, says they should come up with a response
- another (senior) operations guy says my host understands the Wynn's position and should be the only one talking with me
- my host's message to me

So we'll see what transpires. I, of course, respond to my host and say "rather gutless of them to insist you be the only interface".
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:14 AM   #17
wilson1560
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Quote:
Originally Posted by leon View Post
Update- was given a contact in Operations by my host. Sent him a long email. My host emails me back today and says he'll contact me tomorrow when I'm in the office.

?

I scroll down and see, in order-
- operations guy sends email to other operations guys, says they should come up with a response
- another (senior) operations guy says my host understands the Wynn's position and should be the only one talking with me
- my host's message to me

So we'll see what transpires. I, of course, respond to my host and say "rather gutless of them to insist you be the only interface".
Did he end up contacting you?
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:41 PM   #18
Lurshy
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Quote:
Originally Posted by leon View Post
Update- was given a contact in Operations by my host. Sent him a long email. My host emails me back today and says he'll contact me tomorrow when I'm in the office.



?



I scroll down and see, in order-

- operations guy sends email to other operations guys, says they should come up with a response

- another (senior) operations guy says my host understands the Wynn's position and should be the only one talking with me

- my host's message to me



So we'll see what transpires. I, of course, respond to my host and say "rather gutless of them to insist you be the only interface".
They wont change. Negotiate with your host. 1500 up front, 1000 when you reach x. If he has margin he may go for it.

They are paying you less during play, get more up front to make-up for that.

Too much noise, you may actually get banned.

Reading the thread, ops may see you leaving as a loser more often, instead of binking right before busto...

Of course your thread has inspired others too play, but you being up over a long period of time of play... uncertain that it helps your argument...
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:00 PM   #19
leon
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1560 View Post
Did he end up contacting you?
Actually had a long and involved conversation with my host, his boss and a few other senior VP operations/marketing people yesterday.

I'm happy the Wynn took the time to speak to me personally- it seemed to be a genuine conversation and everyone involved at least understood and respected everyone else's position. I'm not going to go into too many details yet bc we're negotiating some particulars.

Ultimately, they're making a business decision and they're not going to modify just for me. However, they're going to try and make it right, and we'll see how far they go to do that. I have a trip lined up that I booked already before this change, so future trips are going to depend on what we can work out.

TL,DR- Wynn is trying on the customer service front. Won't budge on changing VP back. I may get something additional, remains to be seen.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:24 PM   #20
pig4bill
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

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Originally Posted by Lurshy View Post
Of course your thread has inspired others too play, but you being up over a long period of time of play... uncertain that it helps your argument...
Of course it helps. They are corporate casino operators, they don't believe in luck. Or they shouldn't. They just see him holding their money and they can't get it back if he doesn't play there.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:48 PM   #21
leon
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

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Originally Posted by pig4bill View Post
Of course it helps. They are corporate casino operators, they don't believe in luck. Or they shouldn't. They just see him holding their money and they can't get it back if he doesn't play there.
Exactly. I flat out stated to the boss the amount I'm willing to lose per trip on avg, number of times I come a year, etc, as well as the expectation and willingness to lose in the long run SO LONG as I've got a good gamble in front of me. Might as well be open with everyone including myself- it's not a question of if I'll gamble but where, and if the Wynn wants a shot at my money or not.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:20 PM   #22
pig4bill
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

They might be waiting for another couple three months to get a better statistical sample. If I were in charge and the coin-in dropped even a little on TDB games, I'd change it back and send you a special invite to celebrate.

It really only takes a handful of players like you to vote with their feet for them to feel an impact. And that's not even counting the odd craps, blackjack, Walking Dead, etc that you guys play there.
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Old 03-16-2019, 07:45 AM   #23
Pensfan
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Serious question, because I really don't know and basically just believe whatever numbers get thrown around on the internet because the internet never lies to me, right?

When you guys say he should vote with his feet and just not play there, I tend to agree. We can all see how much he runs through the machines and I'm curious how much his vote really counts? In other words, are there a good number of people who play at that level on VP or is Leon and his dad among a few where the Wynn would certainly notice?

If the latter then I can see where not playing there would make a difference, but if he's one vote among several thousand then I can't see where it would matter at all to them.

I genuinely don't know what runs the Vegas economy. YouTube videos will tell you players like myself don't matter and all that Vegas cares about are the whales, reality at my local casino tells me there aren't that many whales to go around and there's a **** ton of us regular folk who actually pay the bills a couple hundred at a time.

I guess I just don't know.....
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:36 PM   #24
leon
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

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Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
Serious question, because I really don't know and basically just believe whatever numbers get thrown around on the internet because the internet never lies to me, right?

When you guys say he should vote with his feet and just not play there, I tend to agree. We can all see how much he runs through the machines and I'm curious how much his vote really counts? In other words, are there a good number of people who play at that level on VP or is Leon and his dad among a few where the Wynn would certainly notice?

If the latter then I can see where not playing there would make a difference, but if he's one vote among several thousand then I can't see where it would matter at all to them.

I genuinely don't know what runs the Vegas economy. YouTube videos will tell you players like myself don't matter and all that Vegas cares about are the whales, reality at my local casino tells me there aren't that many whales to go around and there's a **** ton of us regular folk who actually pay the bills a couple hundred at a time.

I guess I just don't know.....
I don't think any particular place will ever reveal their ideal mix of clientele, although we can infer a lot. Lower tier places likely will be more dependent on and market to the masses. Places like the Wynn are aiming for a higher base, and in turn have a higher price point, etc. The VP boss basically said those are the people they're aiming for.

In turn, I'd imagine a lower tier place would do more to try and please their whales. Or, you'd have to be a relatively higher whale at a high end place to have any pull. That's all logical. Ultimately I think every place will take money from wherever they can get it- they want the whale money, but yeah, they'll take the low rollers as well, money is money. It's more a question of who they're trying to target.

I get the sense that I'm just one voice at the Wynn. They'll hear me out, but ultimately I'm not a big deal to them. If I was they'd be more accommodating. Now, enough people who play at my level or higher walk, well then... that might do something.
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:50 PM   #25
Guy Incognito
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Re: Unfavorable changes to Wynn video poker paytables

Quote:
I'm hopeful the people at the Wynn see fit to restore things to how they were based on community feedback.
I've played at a lot of casinos. Maybe 100 or so. IIRC, the only place I've ever seen reduced paytables restored to the original is Hollywood Tunica (which were eventually reduced again).

I wouldn't be too hopeful. Especially not at a place that charges $28 for eggs at brunch.
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