Hi! New here. I'll try to summarize quickly. I'm a 30 year old male, no commitments. I studied computer science and worked as a video game programmer for 7 years. I was recently diagnosed with Mild Autism Spectrum Disorder (aka high-functioning autism or asperger's syndrome), which explains the social trouble I've had my whole life. I was fired from my last two jobs. The reason for the firings were not made clear, but I suspect related to my social difficulties. I was well-paid, saved aggressively and lived simply. I have about $450,000 saved.

Last July, after being fired for the 2nd time, I decided I didn't want to be a programmer any more. I loved programming, but I was deeply depressed and faced excruciating anxiety every day trying to deal with people on my teams. I wanted to try a new career, playing poker. I felt my unique strengths, personality, bankroll and life situation would work well with this pursuit. I hadn't played before, but I've always loved and excelled at games. It appealed to me that I could be on my own boss, set my own schedule, and my compensation would correlate directly with my performance. I also thought it would be a good opportunity to meet a lot of people and have a structured way to build social competence.

I studied books and some online resources, then I went to local casinos in Seattle for 40 hours a week. I was a losing player from August to December of last year, losing around $9000. I learned from a lot of mistakes, tightened up my game and became a consistent winning player Jan-March, winning back around $5000.

I heard that Vegas had "better" games, and that if you wanted to play for a living, Vegas was the best place to be. So I decided to take a month-long poker trip to Vegas to evaluate for a possible move. Unfortunately, I have been a consistent losing player here. I am 21 days into the 30 day trip, playing 8 hours a day, and have lost $2800 so far. The games feel tougher than at home. I started with 2-5 since I play the 3-5 at home, but I quickly decided to step down to 1-2 after losing three $500 buy-ins.

Now I must face a difficult decision. Should I abandon my poker pursuit and my Las Vegas move and fall back on being a miserable, but profitable, Seattle programmer?

Is it possible and reasonable to consistently make at least minimum wage playing poker here in Vegas? Can I achieve this if I just put in more effort and dedication?

To you wise and experienced 2+2 members, any wisdom or feedback would be appreciated!

TL;DR: Vegas owned some noob!

You did pretty well only losing that playing 8 hours a day. Some people lose that in hours. Did you enjoy playing every day?

I think it depends how dedicated you are to this and if this is what you really want. Because if this is your dream now or something with 450k banked you can def become a winner as time is not a factor.

WSOP only 5 weeks off!
Weather is as bad as the Mariners.
Stick it out for a bit longer!

Good Luck!

Can you elaborate more on your poker study. Give us actual name of books that you've read and training site that you subscribe to. I often find that peoples who try to get into poker now a day tend to start of at the wrong foot, mostly reading the wrong books, resources, etc..


Advice #1 = never mention how much money you have to a room full of strangers, online or offline.

Mumph: Yes, I have enjoyed playing very much!

donnie: Yes, this is what I would really love to do. I only fear that it is a foolish dream and I will never be able to win consistently.

gutz: Thanks for the encouragement! Perhaps I will come back during WSOP and play cash then for a second try.

Diamond: What is the problem with mentioning how much money I have? Is it somehow dangerous for me? I figured it was important and relevant information to describe my situation. I would not do it in person because I would not want people to feel awkward. As for books and resources I have read, here is a list:

Books:
The Theory of Poker - Sklanksky
Winning Strategies for No-Limit Hold'em - Christenson
Small Stakes Hold'em - Miller
Harrington on Cash Games 1 & 2 - Harrington
Caro's Book of Poker Tells - Caro
The Mental Game of Poker - Tendler
Other Resources:
Bart Hanson's old freely available podcasts
Live at the Bike

Math:
Your total losses represent about 1.5% of your roll.
Your Vegas losses represent about .06% of your roll.

You've got 168 hours of play in Vegas and showing a loss of $16.67 per hour, divided between 2-5 and 1-2 (assume in Vegas you're playing 1-3 sometimes as well). At any rate, I am not the stats-God that some folks here are but looking at roughly a 4BB/hr loss rate in a very, very small sample size representing a tiny part of your roll, you're fine.

One of my oldest friends, going back 30 years, wasn't diagnosed with AS until he was an adult, and he struggled with aspects of it throughout our kid/teen years together. I also worked with kids with AS in a professional setting as well, so I have some familiarity with the unique traits that come with it. That said, at the risk of being presumptuous, I wonder if you aren't struggling with the expectation that this should come a lot easier to you given your aptitudes....

Your sample size simply is not large enough to make an assessment as to whether this is true. Part of poker performance is enduring times when you lose, learning when those losses are caused by leaks and suboptimal play, but also accepting when those losses are caused by variance.

So I say stick it out! Re-read your Tendler and examine some of your built-in biases. (I am doing the same thing right now, actually.) Letting go of results-oriented thinking is a struggle for everyone no matter what they bring to the game.

And now, for a question that might seem really crazy (or rude) to anyone not familiar with AS: have you considered also trying blackjack? If card tracking is in your aptitude set and you're serious about making an income in this way it might be worth exploring.

If you're still around in mid-May I hope to avoid pots with you at the table.

Would you consider getting a programming job/regular job in Vegas to support yourself further? That would definitely help.

Also, props to you for not letting AS be an excuse for not doing anything.

I would say keep at it if your having good time and doing what you want. Your not going broke anytime soon and it just might turnaround for the better real soon.

OP, I'm sorry if we got off on the wrong foot. I'm a life nit so I tend to be more discreet with my financial information. You don't have to mention actual amount just said "i have a 5 figures bankroll" or something like that is suffice.


As far as the books that you mention. They're somewhat dated, I would recommend 2 books.

‘Small Stakes No-Limit Hold’em’ by Ed Miller, Sunny Mehta, and Matt Flynn

Harrington "Online 6-Max".

I would also recommend subscribe to training site and playing a little bit online to get the hang of some of the concept that you learn from reading or watching video. It's one thing to learn, but it's totally different when it come to how to execute the stuff you learn. I hope this help, and good luck to you.

LOL at Rainman reference

Poppa: Thanks for taking the time to crunch some stats for me! But I think you mean 0.6% for my Vegas losses instead of of .06%. Easy typo =) Yes, I am also playing some 1-3 depending on where I play, I have tried Bellagio, Aria, Venetian, and MGM so far. You are right, I struggle with the idea that this should be easier, but I also really enjoy the challenge. I only worry that it will not work out. I would say I am more worried than frustrated. I wonder, is the game beatable? Can I make a living? If beating the game is reasonable, I'm confident I will get there sooner or later! I had an image in my head of easily taking money from drunk people. I guess I'm several years too late for that. I agree that my sample size is not big enough to say for sure, but the losing trend does seem pretty clear. It has leveled off as I have been focusing on one game (Venetian 1-2) and tightening up. I write down all of my trouble hands in my journal, and sometimes it is very hard to say whether it was bad luck or bad play. It always feels like bad luck, of course. I will go back to Tendler, every time I go back to that book it helps me out a lot with my mental well-being! As for blackjack, I do not wish to play against the house, that feels like a battle I am sure to lose, so I do not want to play blackjack. Poker is a great fit for me, I think. Also, I don't have the Rainman photographic memory unfortunately.

dozer: I would like to avoid getting a normal job for as long as possible so I can dedicate my time and attention to playing and learning poker. Luckily my savings make this feasible for perhaps 10 years. Though I hope to be a profitable poker player long before that! Thanks for the props, I have never been one to sit around and do nothing.

Mumph: Thanks, I hope you're right!

Diamond: Don't worry about it! I guess everyone has different sensitivities to these things. That's one thing with ASD people. We don't understand unwritten social rules and boundaries very well so it can be hard to learn and keep track of them. Thank you for recommending the books, I will definitely read them! I actually had someone at a table recommend the small stakes book as well, she was an old experienced lady and she had a bunch of small slips of paper with the title of that book on them to give out to people she liked. And I guess she liked me. Could you recommend any particular training site? Also, I'm not sure I can play online. It's illegal in Washington State. And I don't like legal grey areas.

Greatest: Haha, yes I have been called Rainman before, even before I knew about my diagnosis. But the character in that movie is far more disabled than I am. That's why it is called Autism "Spectrum" Disorder. It includes a wide spectrum of symptoms. Mine is very mild. And most ASD people don't have idiot savant super-powers like he does.

It seems like you're putting in the necessary effort to succeed. I would imagine just more hours at the table to learn the nuances of live low stakes NL is all you need.

When I moved here, I was basically a fixed limit player, forced to transition to NL. I was calling check raises and river raises, behind nearly 100% in those situations. Eventually you just learn situations where you're always losing, or perhaps missing out on value.

You'll do just fine in time I'm sure. Stick with it and good luck.

Greetings Thor,

Neat story......and most stories have some basis of truth. As a poker player I see/hear stories everyday in the forms of chips being wagered. Suffice to say I'm a little skeptical, but nonetheless wish you the best.

As a practical matter your analytical approach to poker will only works for the lowest stakes. I understand you've studied some books, have some real-world experience, ambition, and a willingness to try it.

Your fears of making minimum wage and living a miserable lifestyle are very real as a full time poker player. Being a poker player is the toughest emotional roller coaster of any occupation that I'm aware of. You already seem very fragile. This occupation takes a toll on even the strongest personalities and eventually they choose to get off the ride.
My advice is to keep your options open; play poker for awhile -maybe a few months or whatever, after you experience enough of the reality of the day-to-day grind go back to what you do best...and then you may have a new found appreciation for the work you currently don't like.

best wishes sir...

Subbed.

With your bankroll and lack of commitments tying you down, I'd suggest moving to Mexico where you can enjoy the beach, the low cost of living and hone your game by playing online at Pokerstars.

Your learning curve will be significantly accelerated while risking a much smaller portion of your bankroll (because the lower stakes online are much more difficult and give you more hands per hour). Plus you'll have the ability to evaluate your play with all the computer programs available as well as utilizing online learning tools and training sites. Depending upon how many hands you play, you could get the equivalent of 10 years of live play in one year of online play by multi tabling and benefitting from the higher number of hands that are dealt per hour online.

Thats what'd I'd do if I wasn't so lazy, undisciplined, comfortable where I live in the US and if I could concentrate on anything besides Stumleupon.com for more than 5 minutes at a time,

Whatever you decide, best of luck!

You saved 64k a year for 7 years...

How miserable were you? That's a very nice nut you're putting away every year....I doubt I could give that up to grind live low stakes NL.

What are your future goals wrt money? Corny question, but what do you want to be doing in 5 years? House/woman/grinding 2-5 with degens? What appeals most to you?

I use DC and like it.

1.Good customer services.
2.Downloadable content.
3.Easy to search/navigate their database.
4.Primary focus is Cash game.

All training site offer free trial period just sign up to check it out and draw yours own conclusion.

OP - how does AS help or hurt your game? Admittedly I know very little about it aside from difficulty interpreting social cues/signals but are you able to read your opponents? Are you aware of your own image and how opponents view you?

Where's Starberry? I bet he and I are going to suggest something similar . . .

At 30 years old with a very nice nest egg, you should consider the time-value of money and where you could be in 10, 20, 30 years. (What would Dan Harrington say?)

400k invested conservatively (index funds, target funds, etc) will easily be worth a couple million by age 60-65 even without any more contributions.

Say you worked part time (in Vegas) as a contract developer just enough to live on while you work on your poker game. I see two benefits:

1. Income so you aren't living off savings. Nest egg grows.
2. Peace of mind that you aren't depending on poker to make money. Mindset grows.

This isn't a binary situation: either play poker or get a job. You can do both.

I think it would be a travesty to piss away your savings over the next decade while playing poker full time.

Sure, work sucks and you'll have to deal with your social issues, but the poker will be that much more enjoyable when it's leisure time from work instead of work itself.

After saving so diligently for so long, let it grow! Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe.

Not actually an intentional reference although after I typed it I feared that might be the interpretation.

I know two people diagnosed with AS/ASD who absolutely crush BJ for that very reason.

Grunch but I would actually say that LA is the best place to play poker in the US. There's greater game selection and an abundance of home/private games. Additionally, it's somewhat easier to maintain a "normal" lifestyle and be around people who's lives don't revolve entirely around the gaming industry. I would consider a stint here in LA as well if the idea of being a pro is still on the table.

Hello and Welcome Thor,

Considering you're already in Vegas I'm going to base my suggestions on your staying in Vegas. Also, I'd like to make a couple comments on your story to this point.

1. Don't worry too much about your losses right now, they are pretty standard for most beginning poker players. Keep up your play if you are enjoying it and be unafraid to make friends through the forum. There are some great poker minds who reside in Vegas and frequent Vegas (myself totally exclude) who seem to make nice connections with other 2+2ers. These potentially friends and time spent with them are +expected value b/c of their experience in the game. Imagine being a young, talented player and getting learn from guys like LeBron (Cushlash) or Durrant (LAG) or Starbury (Starbury) in both poker and Vegas lifestyle.

2.While you do seem to have a unique set of skills, those skills need to be combined with experience i.e. lots and lots of hours playing. If you indeed enjoy playing just keep logging as many hours as you are comfortable with. Combine this with a workout regime and the already suggested light socializing with fellow players and maybe an additional hobby or light PT job (also good for federal taxes to have a W-2 for some "reported income") you won't get "Vegas Burnout", hopefully.

Okay so now you understand that variance swings are a part of learning the game and it takes tons of hands to learn the games layers (remember many of your counterparts won't be experience in online, while others have logged hundreds of thousands of hands to tens of millions of hands or more of cash game poker. Somewhere in there is your learning curve. Let's assume you have an accelerated learning curve because of your outlier skill set, still be prepared to take variance swings. Don't get discouraged by this, continue to study and play and grow and you will find success.

Use a portion of your savings to invest in passive income streams outside of poker, perhaps that could be your part time job. Possibly buy and rent out a house, find strong players to invest in during the WSOP, buy Zappos stock or do voiceover work for local TV for all I care just find some ways to bring in passive income because it's just smart to keep a revenue octopus.

Play the smaller, local casino poker rooms and mix it up. The strip can be great during tourist days and convention weeks (for some properties) but also can be a f'ing grind during slower times (like right after March Madness) depending on the property. So go out to Green Valley Ranch, Red Rock, Downtown (especially) and get a mix up of rooms and the locals will find a way to help you recover some losses.

Good luck and keep us updated on your trip. Get some pictures going through Photobucket app if possible.

Bighurt: Thanks for the encouragement! You're right, I'm always finding new places where I am always behind, and it helps to know those situations very well and trust your instinct to fold!

Under_the_Radar: I understand your skepticism since I am a very unusual person in an unusual situation, but I assure you it's true. I understand that being analytical is only a piece of the poker puzzle, and I hope to grow in time into the softer skillsets. I think you misunderstand my fear. My fear is not making minimum wage. I have been living a minimum wage lifestyle my whole adult life. That's how I was able to save so much! And I like that simple lifestyle. So making minimum wage while living in a sunny city and playing poker all day sounds like PARADISE to me! I would not call that a miserable lifestyle, I'd call it very happy compared to crippling anxiety of working in software! No, my fear is NOT BEING ABLE to make minimum wage. I fear that I will play poker and lose money over the long term. That would not be acceptable. Your comment about me seeming emotionally fragile is interesting. I am an emotional person, however, I have played over 1200 hours of live poker so far, and despite occasional crazy losses, have never broken down or gone spew-crazy. So I feel that I am emotionally stable enough. My post here is to ask for general advice from an experienced community, not to solicit sympathy or as an emotional breakdown. I actually feel quite happy and healthy. You suggest playing poker for a few months, but I have already been playing full-time for 10 months and loved every minute! Part of my ASD idosyncracies is that I love tedium, repetition, and grinds. So the grind does not bother me at all, in fact, I love it!

Yimyammer: That's an interesting suggestion, moving to Mexico. I had never considered that. I think it's a bit out of my comfort zone. I do understand that playing online will accelerate my learning, but I feel I've spent enough time being a zombie in front of a computer, I much prefer being in a room with real people with body language that I can read. Also, I was banned from PokerStars/FullTilt for writing a bot to test some strategies over time in the play money area. Whoops.

wombat: I hear you. It is a lot of money, and definitely tempts me to return to programming for the money alone. But is it worth my happiness? The anxiety was constant, daily, and was causing a host of actual physical problems that my doctor traced back purely to anxiety. Now that my life is simpler and calmer, those problems vanished! Also, I didn't save 64k a year, I saved less, but invested aggressively in stock mutual funds, and the financial recovery has helped boost my savings a lot. Meaning if the market crashes, I will lose a lot of my savings, but that's the risk I take! My future money goal is to eventually save enough to not have to worry about money, where interest alone pays for a simple lifestyle with some pleasures. I figure I need about $800k in today's dollars to do that. I don't ever want a house, I rent a studio right now and love that. Grinding 2-5 with degens sounds fine, a means to an end. A woman would be great, but with my social difficulties, I'm not sure that's really in my future. But I do figure that if I live in Vegas, it will be much easier to practice being social with fun and attractive women who I will probably never see again!

Diamond: Thanks for the suggestion, I will check out DC.

sbecks: ASD helps my game by making me fiercely analytical. It gives me a still, stony expression that is difficult to read. It also makes me enjoy repetition and tedium, and gives me an intense focus on subjects of interest such as poker, making learning easier. It hurts my game by not understanding what is implied when people say or do certain things, making it more difficult to read people. However, the more time I spend watching people, the more accurate my reads have become.

Rocky: What is the value of being rich in 10 or 20 years if I must be miserable now? I have thought a lot about this very subject, and I believe my current happiness and mental well-being has worth, and I'd rather pursue that while I am still relatively young. Yes, I already invest aggressively and expect my savings to grow. Poker is meant simply to provide a small supplemental income to pay my costs of living while my savings grows. I understand that I could get a job while playing poker, but an ASD quirk is that it's very difficult to switch focus from one thing to another. I prefer to focus on one thing very intensely. It's funny that you say it's not binary, because viewing things as binary is definitely an ASD trait. I agree that it would be terrible to lose my savings over 10 years! I would definitely not do that! I have far too much financial sense to chase something that is not working. That is why I am constantly evaluating my progress and success. If I conclude that I can't actually turn a profit playing poker, I will quickly return to software long before I let my savings dry out. The ten years I mentioned was just to illustrate that I have some time to work on my game and ride out the variance. I actually think poker would be less enjoyable as a leisure activity than a main focus, since I would not be able to devote my full energy and time to it, and would get more frustrated when I had a losing day.

Dollar: LA is an interesting suggestion. I had dismissed it because of the high cost of living, but perhaps it's worth giving a shot.

Natamus: It's encouraging to hear that my losses are pretty standard! I would be happy to meet some people through the forums, I'm sure that would help me out a lot! I am a little awkward but I am very friendly and enjoy meeting people if anybody wants to come sit at a table with me over the next week or something. The annoying part about "variance swings" is it is so hard to identify if it is truly variance or simply bad play! I guess that's where the tons of hours of experience comes in I actually have several streams of passive income so I'm pretty set in that department, for example I own 4% of my buddy's Round Table Pizza restaurant Thanks for the suggestions of some smaller rooms, I will have to check them out! Unfortunately I can't take photos, my phone is a piece of junk, part of how I maintain a low cost of living.

Thor: Good stuff, you have several bases already covered! Love the ownership in the pizza franchise. Also variance is a constant, but it's a variable constant. You reduce its impact through experience which improves your play.

My next solo poker trip out there (late May or Summer) I'll be happy to grab a slice of pizza and play some cards or just chat. I'm quietly a recent Vegas regular and have been playing live in southern California since the gov't took away online poker.

Also, bro, this is coming from a fairly broke (compared to your life-roll) late 20s asst. writer in television, you can get get a new age smart phone for a 1/3 buy in, a really good one, too, with a reasonable monthly plan (under $60). The entertainment, information and capabilities a new 4G phone give you in Vegas as a poker player are powerful.

Such as: BRAVO POKER APP (A MUST HAVE), Poker Bankroll Tracker Apps, Podcasts, Hulu Plus, YouTube, iTunes, Yelp, Groupon Deals, Food Delivery Apps, BRAVO POKER APP (List of all the casinos in Vegas and all their live running games and tourney information), the internet in general and to use 2+2 on the go. Not to mention the fun you can have taking pictures of your chip stacks when you're doing well (aka chip porn).

Basically being thrifty and/or cost conscious is not an excuse for a modern player (especially born in the 80s like us) to not be equipped with top technology at their fingertips.