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Old 05-04-2015, 07:31 PM   #126
gorvnice
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Re: some tips for those seeking the dream....

Full disclosure, I'm a loser at poker and hardly play anymore. But I have found a lot of success in a very difficult field--as a full-time author.

There are some similarities in terms of how many people truly make a living or a good living in my field as well.

Because of the parallels, I have to think the OP's points are much more accurate for the vast majority than many here want to admit. And I don't mean all players, but even those attempting to go pro.

Based on the difficulties of playing full-time, only a very small percentage of people will be able to succeed and flourish over a period of five or ten or even twenty years. It's a much, much smaller percentage than those who happen to be doing well at any one time period. Some of those will struggle in the future, and many are perhaps not being fully honest about their struggles even now.

That the OP got such extreme pushback tells me that he hit a nerve. Rather than attacking, people should really think about what he's saying. It definitely provides a sobering analysis of what it might be like to struggle at the lower levels as a "semi-successful" pro. No, he wasn't a good pro--but he was a heck of a lot better than those who are in debt, being staked, or on the route to going bust in short order.

Some of the very folks you or I might believe are living the life are possibly heading for a much worse fate than OP.

So if you look at what the OP said closely, he's really saying that even amongst pro's, it's a very elite group that's really thriving and not heading for serious future issues.

Sounds about right.

In my field, there are very few authors who are making a very comfortable living. There's a great deal of fantasy about the life of a writer, but most successful ones are actually grinding out stories to make money and not sitting around smoking a pipe and staring out a window at open fields.

The public and even many less successful writers imagine writing to be one thing, while my experience as someone who's in the top .0001 percent is very different. Most will not and cannot understand what I do or how it works, and they wouldn't want to do what I do (they'd find it beneath their artistic sensibilities).

I'd say most casual players and even a lot of pro's don't full understand what it takes to be very, very successful at the game over the long-term. So the OP likely is more right than people here want to give him credit for.

He's dousing the fantasy of an exciting, free lifestyle with the cold, harsh reality that most will experience.
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Old 05-04-2015, 08:38 PM   #127
mrducks
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Re: some tips for those seeking the dream....

Quote:
Originally Posted by gorvnice View Post
Full disclosure, I'm a loser at poker and hardly play anymore. But I have found a lot of success in a very difficult field--as a full-time author.

There are some similarities in terms of how many people truly make a living or a good living in my field as well.

Because of the parallels, I have to think the OP's points are much more accurate for the vast majority than many here want to admit. And I don't mean all players, but even those attempting to go pro.

Based on the difficulties of playing full-time, only a very small percentage of people will be able to succeed and flourish over a period of five or ten or even twenty years. It's a much, much smaller percentage than those who happen to be doing well at any one time period. Some of those will struggle in the future, and many are perhaps not being fully honest about their struggles even now.

That the OP got such extreme pushback tells me that he hit a nerve. Rather than attacking, people should really think about what he's saying. It definitely provides a sobering analysis of what it might be like to struggle at the lower levels as a "semi-successful" pro. No, he wasn't a good pro--but he was a heck of a lot better than those who are in debt, being staked, or on the route to going bust in short order.

Some of the very folks you or I might believe are living the life are possibly heading for a much worse fate than OP.

So if you look at what the OP said closely, he's really saying that even amongst pro's, it's a very elite group that's really thriving and not heading for serious future issues.

Sounds about right.

In my field, there are very few authors who are making a very comfortable living. There's a great deal of fantasy about the life of a writer, but most successful ones are actually grinding out stories to make money and not sitting around smoking a pipe and staring out a window at open fields.

The public and even many less successful writers imagine writing to be one thing, while my experience as someone who's in the top .0001 percent is very different. Most will not and cannot understand what I do or how it works, and they wouldn't want to do what I do (they'd find it beneath their artistic sensibilities).

I'd say most casual players and even a lot of pro's don't full understand what it takes to be very, very successful at the game over the long-term. So the OP likely is more right than people here want to give him credit for.

He's dousing the fantasy of an exciting, free lifestyle with the cold, harsh reality that most will experience.
Is playing poker professionally easy? No. Is it something that people fantasize about but when they try it, they see the reality of the lifestyle? Yes. Is it a horrible decision to do, full of a bunch of hustlers (negative connotation), and only for lonely individuals who want a horrible life? No, not at all.

What strikes a nerve about OP for me is that people try poker, fail at it, and then blame poker itself instead of themselves for failing. Instead of being business men who analyze the situation and find that they failed because of skills that they lack (bankroll management, lack of focus, lack of discipline, or just not being good enough in the game itself), they just say bad things about poker and playing poker professionally. They make it seem like they did the right thing by quitting because it's a waste of time, full of bad people, and not a real job for anyone who wants a normal life. They blame the game instead of blaming themselves. Then they come on the forums and start threads about this.

Im reality, playing poker professionally is a business that some people are cut out for and others are not. There's nothing wrong with that. I would probably fail and many different professions or businesses but that doesn't make them bad career choices and only suitable for lonely degens. I could say the same things OP mentioned about a lawyer or investment banker that puts in 60-80+hrs a week working their way to the top while ignoring other things in life but I know that I probably would fail at that not because it is a bad career but because my skills wouldn't match up to it.

While the things mentioned in OP are true for him, they are not true for poker in general. So instead of blaming bad market conditions, hustlers being everywhere, psychologically draining aspects of the game, and any of the other random things that OP mentioned, maybe he should look within himself and admit that he just failed where others are succeeding.
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Old 05-04-2015, 09:31 PM   #128
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Re: some tips for those seeking the dream....

Fantastic poast mr ducks
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:23 PM   #129
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Re: some tips for those seeking the dream....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrducks View Post
Is playing poker professionally easy? No. Is it something that people fantasize about but when they try it, they see the reality of the lifestyle? Yes. Is it a horrible decision to do, full of a bunch of hustlers (negative connotation), and only for lonely individuals who want a horrible life? No, not at all.

What strikes a nerve about OP for me is that people try poker, fail at it, and then blame poker itself instead of themselves for failing. Instead of being business men who analyze the situation and find that they failed because of skills that they lack (bankroll management, lack of focus, lack of discipline, or just not being good enough in the game itself), they just say bad things about poker and playing poker professionally. They make it seem like they did the right thing by quitting because it's a waste of time, full of bad people, and not a real job for anyone who wants a normal life. They blame the game instead of blaming themselves. Then they come on the forums and start threads about this.

Im reality, playing poker professionally is a business that some people are cut out for and others are not. There's nothing wrong with that. I would probably fail and many different professions or businesses but that doesn't make them bad career choices and only suitable for lonely degens. I could say the same things OP mentioned about a lawyer or investment banker that puts in 60-80+hrs a week working their way to the top while ignoring other things in life but I know that I probably would fail at that not because it is a bad career but because my skills wouldn't match up to it.

While the things mentioned in OP are true for him, they are not true for poker in general. So instead of blaming bad market conditions, hustlers being everywhere, psychologically draining aspects of the game, and any of the other random things that OP mentioned, maybe he should look within himself and admit that he just failed where others are succeeding.
Here's why I don't like your post and all the ones like it.

Any discussion about playing professionally that chooses not to take the health of the poker "job market" (for lack of a better term) into account is useless. This is why you can't compare being a pro poker player with being lawyer. Only ~1% of the people who try to make a good, long career out of poker actually manage to do it. Meanwhile ~80% of lawyers are able to make a good career out of practicing law. You don't have to be a one in a hundred talent to make a living practicing law. You do have to be a one in a hundred talent to play poker. And sometimes even that isn't enough in a job where one bad run of luck is enough to derail an entire career.

It's absolutely ridiculous to place the vast majority of the blame on the individual for failing when the job market all but guarantees his failure. The only mistake these players made is believing it would be possible for them to beat the odds and make a career out of poker in the first place.

Poker as a profession should be lumped into the same category as actor, musician, novelist, and pro athlete. Many people try to make a living doing these things, but only the top 1% ever manage to make it a profession. No one craps on a minor league baseball player for hanging up the cleats after trying and failing to make it to the big leagues. Everyone knows how hard it is to make it to the big leagues, and no one would expect him to slum it for minimum wage in the minors for 20 years. No one craps on a good musician for moving on when he realizes he won't get that record deal. Everyone knows how hard it is to make a great living playing music, and no one would expect him to live out of his van and play in smokey clubs for 20 years. And no one should crap on a poker player for trying and failing to make it as a pro. Life as a grinder is not easy or glamorous, and everyone here should know just how hard it is to get to the level that is easy and glamourous.

There aren't enough good jobs in the poker job market. These guys have every reason to place the blame on the market.

Last edited by GEAUX UL; 05-04-2015 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:42 PM   #130
gorvnice
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Re: some tips for those seeking the dream....

Yes, I think the point is that market conditions for a poker player are so extreme and so difficult…

There is the constant temptation of tilt, playing above one's roll, drinking, pit games, getting in debt or lending out too much…many players are young and don't understand that the money they're making isn't all the much in the grand scheme.

I've seen a lot of talk on this site about someone "crushing" because they make 100k a year or have a big score in a tourney. 100k, though a lot of money, will not set anybody for life. And that 100k might have to last you through a long break-even or downswing, yet its tempting for a younger player to spend and party and not really understand the value of that money.

There are just so many pitfalls to being a player. The game could pass you by, games could dry up, laws change, you could have an epically bad run of cards followed by outside life issues that hurt your bankroll and hurt your psyche.

So I'd say poker is far more challenging than many here want to give credit for. There are challenges that most people couldn't handle, and I'd venture a lot of young pros don't fully understand that the money they're raking in isn't nearly as significant or sustainable as they believe it is.

Of course, these issues crop up in other professions, too, but it seems there are a lot of substantial hurdles to being a longterm, thriving success in poker.

And I think comparing it to being a successful working musician, an elite athlete or a full-time novelist/actor, etc. is fairly accurate in all likelihood. As in any field, there will be those struggling along at the margins and then the top 1 percent who have a very different experience than the lower rungs.

But the experiences of the struggling actor or the struggling poker pro are still far more representative of the overall likely experience of the vast majority of those who undertake the challenge of turning pro at these fields…

So the OPs post, although perhaps a bit biased from his particular mindset and experience, is probably much more realistic than those who say that it's relatively straight forward to make X amount of bb's at 2/5 and have a free and fun lifestyle grinding in Vegas...

Last edited by gorvnice; 05-04-2015 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 05-04-2015, 11:53 PM   #131
Mateo94
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Re: some tips for those seeking the dream....

Ok I am guessing this is for live players not online.
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:41 AM   #132
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Re: some tips for those seeking the dream....

You play 1000 hours, make 15 per, and feel like that's a "pathetic" result? Kid you didnt understand what you were getting into..

Mastering a Live poker room can be a long process..I remember back in the late 90's moving to San Jose..For the first 12 months of playing 20-40 and 30-60 limit and 10-200 spread limit I came out making absolutely nothing..That's right..And here I thought I'd be the very best player in the whole damn town! But you know what? I understood what it takes to make a living playing this game..Unbelievable amount of fortitude ..In year 2 of San Jose I made 50, 000 over the first 2 months..It all came together fast..Then I cruised the next 6 months into 150,000 ..It was obvious to anybody with a clue , that I was the best spread limit player in San Jose..And let me tell you something, that game seemed so easy once I knew the players inside/out..Once I knew the hours of the BIG WHALES..

So I dont want to hear about your conclusions after playing 1,000 hours.

Last edited by Texas Boredem; 05-05-2015 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:48 AM   #133
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Re: some tips for those seeking the dream....

I find all of this conjecture to be entertaining.

Fact: I have been on the scene longer than I care to admit (not a brag at all - just the truth)

Fact: most that try do not succeed. I have seen countless wannabees fail

Fact: it takes hard work, discipline etc to become a highly skilled player

Fact: very very few work their asses off away from the tables the way I have or the way a lawyer does while going to college and then law school.

Fact: those that succeed are nothing special - they were not born with a gift. They have simply worked hard to understand the game better than most others
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Old 05-05-2015, 12:45 PM   #134
mrducks
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Re: some tips for those seeking the dream....

Fact: Bears eat beets.

Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:44 PM   #135
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Re: some tips for those seeking the dream....

If onlys and justs were candies and nuts, then everyday would be un de Donkfest!
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