Anyone notice that the 1/2 and 1/3 games were way worse this WSOP compared to last year? I don't mean that the regs were better. I mean there were way fewer total idiots spewing off money and in general less moderately bad fish. I feel like Upswing poker alone had a huge part in contributing to that because it's geared towards beginners. It can easily turn a -50 bb/hr fish into a -20 bb/hr fish and a -20bb/hr fish into a break even player.

How many recreational players did you talk to in these games that were subscribers to Upswing Poker?

Are you talking games AT the Rio during WSOP or are you talking about ALL games in the area during the six weeks or so of tourney calendars?

If the former, then you are looking at selection bias. There simply didn't seem to be as many games going at times in the convention center.

If you mean Vegas in general, then you simply were not looking or table selecting properly. There were plenty of good games at those levels...and I base that across multiple trips during the entire calendar between Memorial Day and the end of Seniors Week.

You've posted this before. The fish aren't studying poker and they're certainly not shelling out money to study.

Most recs are either way too busy or way too lazy to put in the time.

Variance is a factor too. You might have ran bad in game selection or fish playing at other properties.

Also, if the game doesn't bring in new players, the fish arent going to suck so bad year after year. Eventually they will stop playing J2o and the like.

Yesterday I met this 1/3 grinder at Aria. Said he moved to Vegas two years ago to give poker a shot. He was a total beginner. He subbed to upswing, joined a poker whatsapp group and now he is the only 1/3 player I've played recently that I respect simply because he doesn't have any of the same leaks that 90% of 1/3 grinders do.

If upswing can change him from a fish to that, anyone who kind of cares about getting better will also sub and improve. There's a ton of reg fish. I'm sure after years of losing and coming back some of them have thought about how to get better. And yes I have encountered a bunch of people who are on upswing. They're all the younger crowd though. Before they subbed they could've been losing players.

But if you guys haven't noticed a difference in the quality of games, then my table selection game must not be on point.

Most older regs think they figured out how to play 15 years ago and nothing these young over aggressive players do will change their minds. AK is still a drawing hand, and a 4bet pre is still AA/KK only and forever.

If someone still grinds 1/3 two years after moving to Vegas specifically to play poker, that might mean a lot of things, but certainly not that Upswing or any other training website transformed him into someone with a deeper understanding of the game.

You are right that everyone who wants to improve has the change to sign-up to a training website, but that’s nothing new. Today it might be Upswing, ten years ago it was DC or CR.

I did notice much tougher games at 1-3 during the WSOP. I’ve talked to several players that have watched vloggers like Andrew Neeme, but it’s hard to say how much of an impact it has on the games.

He could have other leaks in life that keep him at 1-3. Especially in Vegas which is a town where it’s super easy to lose your money.

games were way easier for me vs last year. everywhere I played.

but this means nothing: to compare a ~40hr segment of play at a "one-time" location yearly is almost impossible.

I played at Bellagio, Aria and Wynn and noticed more grinders who might have been playing 1-3 because the waiting lists for 2-5 were really long. But idk.

I don't live in Vegas, but it would seem like if WSOP tourney players looked to improve their tourney play from years past, that some of that improvement would carry over to cash games. I mean, it's not like WSOP tourney fields are getting bigger year after year, so I'd imagine a lot of the players are returning players. But like I said, I don't live there, so just a guess.

It's funny cause this is mostly true at 1/3. Today someone sat down and opened 20 in UTG+1. Two callers, I made it 110 with QQ and he shoved 500. I folded. Then I realized that guy was Armenian Mike instead of some random old guy at 1/3 and quickly regretted the fold.

That's true but I think way more people know about Upswing than DC or CR because it's way better advertised.

more like 400+ hours over each summer.

Doubt it. Tourney players usually have trouble adapting to deep stacked play.

I don’t think they are tougher just a lot more boring. I’m seeing more and more anti social locals staring at their phones and iPads.

Funny OP... I found this year's wsop season much more spewy and exploitable than any in recent memory at both the little game and 2/5.

What I felt was different was the overall volume seemed quite low compared to years past despite the tournament figures.

That’s true. But if you are a local during the busiest time of the year for poker, your life leaks have to be massive to not find anyone to stake you for higher games.

If you have the skill to play 5/10 and are in the care room daily to crush 1/3 games, people will notice. And if you are part of a poker WhatsApp group with good players, chances are you post there to sell action for higher games and find takers immediately.

That's very subjective. I've been offered live staking before but turned it down. The thing about live staking...it usually involves having to play a certain number of hours to be forgiven any losses. Although 250 hours is easily doable during the WSOP, you're now forced to play instead of playing on your own accord. One of the biggest benefits of full time poker is the freedom and flexibility. Now you lost them and instead gained basically a boss. A boss you have to share half your profits with.

Also, I have a friend who played 5/10 for years professionally. He told me that the average 1/3 winner simply has zero shot of being +EV at 5/10. Even if a 10 bb/hr 1/3 player can win at 5 bb/hr at 5/10 (definitely won't happen), that's gonna be a lower hourly after splitting the profit. I don't think a 5/10 or 10/20 player will care or even notice who's consistently winning at 1/3 anyways.

The only benefit of getting staked that I see is if the staker is also a good coach who is willing to invest a lot of time coaching you.

Grinding 1/3? **** that ****! Just go flip some burgers. Minimum steaks 2/5 and even then you have to be ready, willing, and able to play in the occasional bigger game to make a full time go at professional poker.

^ Burgers, steaks? You hungry?

Slightly OT, but on the topic of backing/staking, what type of MTT results would an unknown player need before the prospect of getting investors for the Main Event would become realistic?

I'd like to play it next summer, but I don't want to spend the full $10k. I was in Vegas during this past summer and had a couple minor cashes around town. I'm going back to Vegas three times in the next 6 months, mostly for WSOP-C. Wondering how impressive my credentials need to be before I can make a convincing case to potential investors for the main.

It felt like there were more small stakes PLO games than last year. Maybe some of the spewy action junkies started playing omaha.

Do u live in vegas? I’ll be in town next week! U usually play at aria 1/3?

I think you used to be able to make a living at 1/3 in Vegas cause of how cheap living costs were. If you could average 20-25 an hour and put in a decent amount of hours, that would've been more than enough provided you had like 10-15k saved in case of a bad downswing. It's certainly different now because rent has gone up and the games are worse. Last summer I made more than enough money to cover rent, car rentals and all my other expenses here playing mostly 1/2, 1/3 with a little 2/5 in there too. Playing mostly 2/5 is 100% enough to make it. That's why 2/5 is so bad here. Like actually so much worse than 1/3. There's so many 2/5 pros in Vegas.

I think if you wanna live in a studio or one bedroom your entire life, never get married or have kids then 1/3 is totally doable still if you're one of the best 1/3 players. Sounds like a horrible life though.

Nah I just came down for a second summer. Super wish I did. I play wherever I want these days cause it's August but definitely play a lot at Aria. PM me if you wanna grab a beer or some food or even roll with me next time I walk around the strip playing drunk poker for fun. That last part didn't go so well last night but can't be a green tea drinking nit 100% of the time.

Your post reeks of having a bad attitude. 25 per hour equates to 50k a year, that's more than most entry level jobs will pay.

Also, are you playing during peak times? Graveyard shift? It sounds like your giving up on poker. Not even trying to move up anymore. That's a lot of wasted time on this forum and playing live if you plan to just give up.

Every single one of your posts reeks of having a bad attitude. You specifically and a few other trolls are one of the reasons why I'm gonna post way less in LLSNL and do something more productive with my time.

Sure 50k a year is a more than most entry level jobs will pay. But it's not A LOT more, and you get zero benefits, more stress and there's variance. Also that's assuming you're gonna put in 2000 hours a year which is 40 hours a week for fifty weeks. It's a high stress job and I think for a poker pro 1500 is more standard. Also, very few 1/3 grinders make $25/hr. That's over 8bb/hr.

I'm not even sure what you're getting at here tbh. Are you saying that grinding 1/3 isn't a horrible life? Also when did I say or imply that I was giving up or not planning to player higher stakes in the future? It's so obvious that you're a troll who provides zero value to this forum. All you do is start pointless arguments and talk ****. I'm shocked you're not banned yet.