Not suprising, there is a degree of repressive tolerance at work, even in NVG, where some blasts and their blasters are not allowed free rein.

The intellectual underpinning of repressive tolerance can be found in writings by Herbert Marcuse. See, Repressive Tolerance , 1965

"To take a most controversial case: the exercise of political rights (such as voting, letter-writing to the press, to Senators, etc., protest-demonstrations with a priori renunciation of counterviolence) in a society of total administration serves to strengthen this administration by testifying to the existence of democratic liberties which, in reality, have changed their content and lost their effectiveness."
...
Under a system of constitutionally guaranteed and (generally and without too many and too glaring exceptions) practiced civil rights and liberties, opposition and dissent are tolerated unless they issue in violence and/or in exhortation to and organization of violent subversion. The underlying assumption is that the established society is free, and that any improvement, even a change in the social structure and social values, would come about in the normal course of events, prepared, defined, and tested in free and equal discussion, on the open marketplace of ideas and goods.

...

Within the affluent democracy, the affluent discussion prevails, and within the established framework, it is tolerant to a large extent. All points of view can be heard: the Communist and the Fascist, the Left and the Right, the white and the Negro, the crusaders for armament and for disarmament. Moreover, in endlessly dragging debates over the media, the stupid opinion is treated with the same respect as the intelligent one, the misinformed may talk as long as the informed, and propaganda rides along with education, truth with falsehood."

https://www.marcuse.org/herbert/pubs...etolerance.htm

Both sides have bias, clearly ... but it is tolerated within limits. What we have seen take root from the Left is a mishmash of essentially non-political intolerance weaponized against the Right on social justice issues, rather than class or economic issues. (There is no issue of Left or Right politics when the Social Justice warriors ride, there is only PC.)

Thank you thank you thank you. I'm not an outlier on this site after all.
There are others, like yourself, who have strong feelings about these things.

There's a barbershop where I used to go at as a kid. Now the son took over from the father. A town tradition, so to speak.
Last time I was there about four years ago, before the Trump era, on Fox news, they were criticizing Obama on some pardons he was giving, contemplating on giving, convicted drug fellons. These were people who had been given excessively long sentences for minor drug violations.
I thought it was only right to pardon them or at least reduce their sentences. And this guy, my barber, sighed in disgust as if Obama was going to unleash mass murderers into the public.
I couldn't bring myself to go back since.

Unfortunately, it's not all that cut and dry. My sister is a small business owner and she is conservative and voted for Trump. She simply believes in paying less taxes and only thinks of her bottom line.
Well, it's probably goes deeper than that, but am I not to talk to my sister?
We just don't talk politics.

Is the bar filled with 70+ year old white guys? It's sad how addicted they are to the rage/fear machine.

My Dad, 79yrs, did ROTC in college and was in the Navy for a couple years after graduating. While I was growing up he had nothing but disdain for the military. Everything they did was backwards, a "mickey mouse" operation full of idiots who couldn't tie their shoes. When I was applying to college I thought about doing ROTC myself as I figured it would help me not party all night and sleep all day as I was bound to do. Not only did he think it was a bad idea, HE FORBID ME from doing it and that was just about the only time he forbid me from doing anything.

Fast forward to today and he's got his OMC style military themed baseball hats, fox news on the DVR, is active in the Legion and was up in arms over the NFL player protest.

Keep in mind he voted for McGovern over Nixon and FOREVER used to tell us how he knew the Gulf of Tonkin was a sham to get us into war.

I don't know what happens to these old guys, I guess as they become a little less sharp each year they become more fearful and thus ripe to be exploited. I'm just glad he's still with it enough not to buy gold coins from Glen Beck or whatever other huckster scams are running through Fox.

I couldn't agree with you more.
Because I had the audacity to say that I can respect a conservative like a McCain, I got flamed.

They are all a private little club there, doing nothing but complaining mostly about how horrible everything is in America. I told them, you can be a liberal and still love this country. They didn't like that either and all wished me to go away!
What bothers me the most about them is, although I myself have an immigrant background, half those people aren't even Americans!

it really is hilarious. the 2+2 politics forum should be deleted and the servers that store it should have bleached poured on them and then they should be smashed with a hammer.

mrwookie, moderator of the politics forum, is one of the countless victims of trump derangement syndrome. since he made it to supermod i have to assume that he was sane at one point (mat is a very good judge of character), but he's lost any semblance of intellectual integrity that he may have once had.

mrwookie will edit your posts, libel you, and then kick you out of the forum.

Okay, I'll bite.

For many of us, it's not an issue of bias. I don't have a problem with a conservative news network in theory (though I am a center-left mostly liberal). But Fox News has gone beyond the pale through fabrication, propaganda, omission of major events, and by serving as a state sanctioned mouthpiece for the President of the United States' agenda. Do we really want state-run media in this country? I thought conservatives were against government stepping into private industry? Or is that only when it's convenient for their agenda?

Again, I have no problem with conservatism. I have voted for conservative politicians. I also believe liberals have way over-reached on issues of identity politics and trying to shout down people who aren't perfectly PC. There are plenty of issues on which reasonable people can disagree. My issue is with Trumpism, a post-fact world, and a total disregard for the political norms and democratic ideals this country was built on -- and yes, Fox News dishing out steaming heaps of rancid propaganda is part of that.

My liberal peers who share my views need to do a better job of not conflating conservatism with Trumpism, because painting every Republican with a "deplorable" brush is counter-productive and delusional. Have whatever policy opinions you like, but draw the line at corruption, foreign interference, graft, nepotism, propaganda, etc.

The problem, as I see it, is the tendency--not a new one, but one which seems more prevalent today--to hyperbolize and pigeonhole viewpoints such that what was once reasonable disagreement is now nothing but an unreasonable, hateful viewpoint. Opposition to abortion becomes opposition to women; support for stricter immigration controls becomes racism and xenophobia.

To be clear, this is not something that is unique to today's left. For years we (on the left) have had to deal with this sort of reductionist logic: calls for reduced military spending or increased oversight over anything regarding the military made you unpatriotic, for example. But it seems to me this has reached a fever pitch on the left today.

There are productive ways to talk about the social impacts of certain policies without (often, but certainly not always) wrongfully accusing others of being racist, sexist, etc. In my experience, it is far more productive to argue that a certain policy has incredibly harmful impacts on certain groups of people than saying that the policy is "racist" or whatnot.

Of course, when someone shows themselves to actually be motivated by hatred or prejudice, it's a whole new ballgame which is usually not worth playing. But most folks deserve the benefit of the doubt. And now, more than ever, successful communication from the left requires that we provide our friends, neighbors, internet correspondents--our fellow Americans--the benefit of the doubt that they are, at least not knowingly, motivated by prejudice.

So would you go into PTs Pub or Sierra Gold for beer and, in my opinion, high quality bar food .... despite their reported entertainment policy ?

I would plan to do so if I need to eat something near Jones and the 215. Their food is pretty good and the menu offers a pretty large selection, fairly priced.....

i'm sure they have done all that. i don't watch fox news, but i believe you 100%. there are countless examples of CNN and NBC doing the exact same thing - they were pillow soft on Obama. there's actually no honest mainstream news in this country. it's "news entertainment".

the best way to get honest news is to find 3rd parties that you trust who curate news stories from various sources. there are tons of libertarian/independent types on social media who share stories from both right wing and left wing sources.

we actually do have state-run media...PBS and NPR are funded by the federal government (and viewers like you). are you concerned about them being a mouthpiece for Trump?

fox news being favorable toward Trump doesn't make them a "state sanctioned mouthpiece". they ride his dick because they know he's literally at the white house watching for like 3 hours a day.

they are putting on a show to make him and their viewers happy. like I said, "news entertainment".

I've been to PT's twice.

The first time, the bartender explained what I had to do to get comped drinks. I played that much, and then some. End of the night, new bartender on shift hands me a bill for all of the drinks, I tell him they were supposed to be comped, he shrugs and says he can't do anything about it. I would have raised hell, but I was on a date that was going pretty well, and didn't want to make a scene.

Second time (didn't realize it was PT's, as it was under the other name... SG?) I get told I'm only allowed one free drink, even though I've been playing for about an hour. She tries to explain it with some weird "math"; I just laugh and cash out.

So the fact that the place with Trumpian business practices only allows FoxNews on the TVs is about the least surprising news this year.

One of the regs at the local place is an op/ed guy for the Review/Journal, known for their libertarian (but still pro-Trump) bent. We got into a few fun debates, in between talking sports and poker and everything else. I'm going to miss hanging out with him.

My Dad has had almost the opposite journey. He was a Goldwater Republican in his mid-20's and stayed died-in-the-wool conservative all the way to the end of the Obama administration. But now he hates Trump, hated him from the first moment Trump rode down the gold escalator. It's nice that we've been able to bond over that. It would have been sad for Trump to have gotten between us this late in the game.

I pretty much agree with every viewpoint posted here so far.
Great overall civil and intelligent thread.

I thought I'd share a couple more things.

As I mentioned, I have an immigrant background. My parents are from the "old country" . I myself, thinking the grass was greener on the other side, and because of my ex, went and lived in Europe for some years. Germany to be precise. I thought I could offer some unique perspective from living abroad, on the politics forum, but nobody cared to listen.
Anyway, one of the things I learned to appreciate about America while living abroad was the civil discourse we have in this country.
Not in Germany but if you tune into political programs from many other countries, you witness nothing but shouting and people talking over each other and nobody listening to one another. Now I realize that it always hasn't been all koumbaya in this country either but I think never so bad like some of those other countries.
Then Trump comes into the picture and all of a sudden, people start to behave the same way as they do in those foreign countries.
I found that rather unsettling.
But it's not that big a surprise really. Half the people Trump hired as advisors are really foreigners. Like that slimy Sebastian Borka.

Now why I I use the word foreigner so liberally. Because living abroad some years, I realized a lot of what makes Americans Americans, or this applies to all countries as a matter of fact, is the mentality, social culture. You basically have to grow up here. Somebody from abroad just can't come here and impose their values, viewpoint. Like a Melania for example. Well , I could go on forever but maybe I should just end it here.

I don't watch CNBC anymore either. 24/7 nothing but the same thing.

Have a great uncle in the family with the same sickness. Went to his house Christmas morning. He had to have the Fox talking heads on the TV droning in the background while we ate breakfast and exchanged some gifts. Christmas morning. Couldn't put down the glass pipe for even an hour.

Fox News is biased in the direction of lies and every other new network is biased in the direction opposite of lies?

Probably because Morning Joe and Mika were off that day

LOL I guess you prefer the enlightenment of AOC being interviewed on MSNBC ? Again what the heck do you think CNN is if not a Democratic mouth piece ? Have to SMH as to why "liberals" stereotypically immediately resort to Name calling. Just Knee jerk TDS I guess. Free speech is fine as long as it is trumpeting a liberal cause it seems.

We all need to differentiate between a news program on Cable NEWS and a Commentary.......... Hannity like Maddox are commentators they also happen to be the two highest rated shows on cable.

You sir I feel I could have an intelligent balanced conversation with looking at a topic from different sides of the issue .......... want to meet at PT's ? ROFLMAO

Seriously thanks for a sane logical post.

There is not a single major left leaning news outlet that is as bad as fox is. Fox spouts lies on purpose every day and they have bread hate into their followers. No left leaning news outlet does anything like this. They have taught their followers to not care about facts or the truth, and that has been and is very dangerous. These are the same methods Hitler used to take over a country.

MSNBC and CNN both employ several conservative speakers that appear on their shows daily. Fox does not employee ANY left leaning speakers. They do nothing but spew lies, hate, and racism day in and day out. They are propaganda and nothing more.

So when you and others say that left leaning news organizations do the same thing, you are either a Fox follower or very ignorant.

I think Trump has 2020 in the bag and it's not even close. Two years later and it's the same refrain - ORANGE MAN HITLER!

The left has zero idea how much the middle of the country loves Trump. Calling him a nazi does nothing except make his supporters think you are stupid, make them hate you, and make it more likely they will go to the polls. Because they are just regular people.

In a way, it makes sense that the left can do nothing but repeat "Trump nazi" over and over...the far left is essentially a gang of petulant children - which is why AOC is their spirit animal.

Do you know why even the exit polling for the 2016 election was off? The pollsters reported an exponential increase in voters telling them to "**** off" as they left their polling place.

If anyone is breeding hate into the right, it's the left with their never ending chorus of "racist, sexist, nazi". Look how many times it's been posted in this thread! Trust me, it's only driving voters into Trumps arms.

Jeepers, you're gonna ruin my sleep!
I don't know if he's going to get re-elected but most of what you said is pretty on point I'm afraid.
That's what I meant when I said I don't watch msnbc anymore.
I can't stand Trump but I'm tired of turning on the news and for two years, seeing nothing but this obsession with impeachment.
I mean, I think he should be impeached but there's other news out there .

This country is so huge, people are truly clueless about how people really are in other parts of the country.

Well, I think the economy is slowing down and Trump is going to lose a lot of support but we'll see.

Thanks SJ, for oppening this can of worms!
Just kidding bro.

I agree that the left calling Trump names isn't helping them with attracting new voters. Sadly, if they were dumb enough to vote for Trump in the first place, they definitely aren't willing to listen to the left tell them how they were wrong. The biggest thing Trump has going against him is that his policies have hurt and will continue to hurt people who voted for him. The fact that he's a con man is shining through when he's on center stage. He said he wouldn't touch peoples medicare or medicaid, but what did he just roll out? Major cuts to both. This is an area that can hurt him greatly. Also, thanks to Fox and the right branding the affordable care act, Obama Care, people on the right actually did not know they were the same thing. They voted for him thinking he was getting rid of the one they didn't use. Now people have lost health insurance. There were interviews with people who said "I didn't realize I was voting to get rid of my own insurance". Here is where I talk about Fox propaganda being dangerous. They have convinced almost half the country to not listen to facts and only follow the line the right rolls out. These people have been and will continue to vote against their own best interests, and most of them won't listen to anyone telling them that's what they're doing because the right said so.

Yeah this is probably getting a little far off from the topic at hand, but I understand what you are saying regarding your examples of abortion and immigration.

I believe both the right and left try to paint the other side with a large brushstroke, both do so in an effort to gain political advantage.

As an aside, I truly think Trump is an evil person at his core. And you really can't say that about many people. Maybe a handful. While people like Obama, the Bush's, Clinton, or even Reagan have made policy decisions I didnt agree with, I dont believe they are evil at their core. Trump is a different thing. He has absolutely no redeemable qualities as a human being. He has proven himself as an anti-intellectual, con man, grifter, pathological liar, criminal, misogynist, racist, spousal cheater, and a failure at business. He is self-entered, shows no signs of being empathetic, and shows visible signs of mental decline (not his fault but this just exacerbates everything else). What kind of human being gets on the phone with a little kid and questions whether the kid should still believe in Santa Claus while on the phone with the kid? There is something deeply, deeply wrong with this "man". Yet millions were conned into voting for him.

I guess my point here is try, just try to have an educated conversation with a die hard trump supporter. You can't. These people are irredeemable. So if you have a large percentage ( like 25% I'd consider "die hard" Trump supporters ) of ones country fillled with "irredeemable" people, where does that leave the country? IMO, in the crapper. This just isnt about Trump. This is about in which direction this country is headed for generations to come. If the right continues to cling to the Trump way, who can possibly think this will lead to a positive outcome for this country? History will not treat Trump kindly, Fox News kindly, or those that voted for Trump kindly.

The problem with people like Tucker Carlson is he tries to come off as some type of intellectual of the right. But try watching him when he is getting his ass handed to him while debating. I have literally watched him call someone else stupid on air. I've seen him yell over people. I've seen him laugh at people. I've seen him cut people off. This is not what an intellectual does. This is what a scared individual does.

Tucker (and the rest of the anti-intellectual crew ie Judge Jeanine, Laura Ingraham, Hannity) does nothing more than present a culture war each and every night. "They are coming for your..." seems to be a common theme amongst this group. And, I have to admit, very effective amongst those of weak mind, lower IQ, and allergic to facts. All this group does is try to inflame their viewers instead of presenting factual information. But they are there for the ratings, no matter what it takes. Meanwhile, they, along with Rush, and yes, even Infowars, are doing untold damage to this country. But hey at least they have great ratings, right?

This thread is a great synopsis on why politics should not be permitted to intrude on forums and why it is best left out of social arenas like a bar. We have people spouting all manner of attacks upon the character of people they don't know and further, commentary is being offered about media outlets that simply is not accurate statements.

If it cannot be placed back on the rails to discussing a specific company and programming offered in the bar setting of the Las Vegas area, it is beyond time to shut this thread down.

+1
and I don't even own a TV

Agree, shut it down.....