Hey man, just finished reading this thread. Little background on myself and my advice from my viewpoint, for what it's worth.

I had a similar situation like you, I hit a 19k score online, moved from Orlando to Vegas the first of year, grinding 1/2, 1/3 out here, with some trips to LA now and then.

The 1/2 and 1/3 games here are fairly soft, but I table select pretty nitty. I tell people "at any moment there's around 100 games going in Vegas, if you can't find a good one you're not looking." And for the most part this is true. Obviously nights/weekends are much more profitable times, but during the days don't have to be bad either, there's actually quite a few families on vacation, conventions in town etc, to break up the locals/regs.

I play some 2/5 occasionally, it's already been mentioned that Bellagio 2/5 max and Wynn 1/3 max are both $500, Wynn 1/3 at a good table plays more like a 2/5. A fellow pro and friend of mine, Kyle Loman, is a 1/3 reg there and crushes with a crazy hourly of $45 (Episode 102 of thinking poker podcast for his interview and story) I don't kill it nearly as hard, but am above 10bb an hour with an hourly of $24 thus far.

I know the rake structure and short buyin for low stakes in LA can seem pretty hideous at first, but because these games just play so short, at a good table, no exaggeration, there will be an all in every other orbit. I've seen guys in for 2k+ at the $200 game, there's a lot of gamble there, and once you build a stack, everyone is pretty terrible playing deepstacked and make way too many mistakes postflop, my hourly at the Commerce is higher than anywhere it is in Vegas, but not so ridiculous that I want to live there, plus driving a prius means gas is pretty minimal expense for those trips.

2/5 here seems decent, 5/10 honestly there's normally not a lot of games going, maybe a few at a time, but I know for most people looking to play 5/10 and up, they don't normally look at Vegas. So that's my two cents, I love it out here in Vegas, and it's totally doable, at least thus far for me hahaha. Cheers bro, best of luck on wherever you decide.

Thanks, I really appreciate your insights. I wish I had done what you did and moved to Vegas immediately. My ex-wife just wouldn't go for it, and my parents wouldn't either, and I wasn't prepared to risk my marriage and relationship with my family over it (though I should have been as it was a terrible marriage).

I am in fact an extreme night owl so I would prefer night games. I think I actually have a sleeping disorder, "delayed sleep phase syndrome." Can't consistently wake up at 7 or 8 AM to save my life. I just naturally wake around 8 PM and get sleepy when the sun comes up. I figured this would be of great benefit in Vegas.

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In another thread, a couple people suggested a "remote casino" like the Winstar on the TX/OK border might be best for someone like me just starting off and trying to minimize costs and build a bankroll. I've asked about it in the Winstar thread but only gotten a couple responses, so since this one I started myself I thought I'd ask about it here, too.

Any Vegas players know anything about it? It turns out this casino is 3 hours north of where I live. It would be an easy move. The nearest town of Gainesville TX (10 miles south) seems crappy but I could deal with it for a couple years if necessary. They have brutal rake structure, as I understand it $1 drop every hand plus 10% rake capped at $5 from the pot, but the players are really bad, almost no regs, and there is constant action at 1/2, 1/3, and 2/5. Buyins are capped at 100BB unfortunately. I'm seriously considering it. I had my heart set on Vegas, but many people have made excellent points that the games are probably much tougher than I had initially thought. Any thoughts on the Winstar?

The Vegas trip is on hiatus while I consider my options.

Yeah I've never played at winststar so I couldn't say, it sounds decently OK but something about only having one option as a casino doesn't seem that great to me for going pro. Here is Vegas, especially on nights and weekends it's rare to find an awful 1/2, 1/3 game, it's more so a matter of finding the best ones. One thing Ive definitely gotten more comfortable with is being satisfied both with short sessions and small wins. Before a good session to me was doubling up. Now as a pro it's just making the right decisions, making money, everything is + or - ev.

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I played for a living for 4 years with Winstar being my home casino. I would recommend against Winstar due to quality of life. The casino is crappy and the atmosphere sucks (albeit, I could say the same of most Vegas 1/2 locations as well) but most of all the town of Gainesville is ****hole middle america. Population 15k..they have fast food, a small # of mostly chain sit down restaurants, and a wal-mart and that's it. It could work if you just want to grind, grind, grind and have no life whatsoever which sounds ok in theory but is a really terrible reality, IMO. You could live in Denton which is a college town in DFW. That might be ok but your commute will be at least 40 minutes each way. You can also live in apartments at the casino but there is NOTHING else in Thackerville and those apartments are not cheap.

In general the games are great obviously because who the hell wants to play for a living in Thackerville. Attainable winrates at 2/5 are way higher than anything Vegas has to offer. I'm sure the 1/2 is just a bunch of clueless idiots, and the 1/3 can't be very tough. When they first created the 1/3 a lot of the very ABC breakeven types moved from 2/5 to 1/3..those guys are pretty easy to play against. I can't imagine there are many true winning players in those games.

The 5/T is hit or miss in terms of quality. I'd say in recent years it's been more miss than hit. Many of the pros in those games are really T/20+ pros that are just playing 5/T because it's often the biggest game running in the casino (most of the bigger games run underground in Dallas). This is quite impactful as there are typically just 1 or 2 games running.

Winstar doesn't get tourists so most of the players play there regularly. I suspect this is similar to a casino like Red Rock although I have never played there. That doesn't mean the players are good though. On the contrary most are pretty bad.

FWIW, I've heard that New Orleans and Shreveport are even softer than Winstar for the Live Low Stakes.

I've heard 2/5 at Harrahs in Cherokee NC is incredible too. No way in h(ll I'd want to live there it's literally in the middle of nothing.

If Winstar is so close it'd be worth trying out you don't have to move there or buy a house.

But I think vegas is a much better choice it's not that big a difference in terms of commitment plus you can rent decent weeklies at decent price if you need to.

Thanks for the responses. I honestly have no life, so I think I could handle living in Gainesville. The main attraction of Winstar over some of these other casinos is how close it is to here. I'd be able to regularly visit relatives, and if it turns out I'm garbage at live poker, or can't make as much as I need to, it would be easier to get back than from Vegas. And I doubt I wouldn't be a winning player inside a few weeks for an adjustment period because I crushed low stakes online pretty easily, but it is possible.

Commuting from Denton seems even worse. Yeah, it's not a bad town, but driving 30 to 40 minutes minimum five or six days a week seems pretty crummy.

Shreveport is also not that far. About 4.5 hours.

@Dream Crusher

I've lived in some God-awful places before. It sucks, but if I'm spending most of my time at the casino and asleep when I'm not, does it really matter? I guess if I'm going crazy I can always drive to Denton. I know a couple people there, so there's that. Small comfort.

I'd check out the place first before moving obviously. If it's beyond hideously bad I'll look for other options. Vegas, Tampa, and Miami being the main ones right now, though I suppose I shouldn't ignore Maryland--but I don't want to live in Maryland. Would have to sell most if not all my guns. Same is true for LA of course but in LA it might be worth it.

I wouldn't want to play at Winstar permanently...probably 1 to 3 years while I build enough bankroll and liferoll to relocate to LA where I can grind 5/5+ and not worry about going busto.

Definitely it's a disappointing idea for me. Living in a real city like Vegas would obviously be more fun, but I can deal with living in crapholes. I was in Waco for three years and while it's a lot bigger, it still feels like a small town with nothing to do but stay at home.

One thing that confuses me--areavibes.com gives Gainesville an F on crime. How does a town of 15k get an F on crime?

I'm facing the same decision in about three years and the data you provided on rake+cost of living in Florida is invaluable. Thanks!

is south florida the only place in Florida that has good poker?

I'm not really the person to ask, but I've heard from several people Tampa is a great place to play low to mid stakes poker. There are four decent sized card rooms within 45 minute drive, some closer. Seminole Hard Rock Casino for example is in Tampa proper. Cost of living there is also quite reasonable, and the games are allegedly pretty soft. You could ask in the Florida thread though I recently asked these questions so I'd expect similar responses.

who cares? only racists obsess over race

Was that directed at me? I don't think I mentioned race at all here, and haven't seen anyone obsess over it.

Gainesville is known to have a lot of meth heads, and thus a lot of property crime. I lived there for a year and the vast majority of the town is a real ****hole. There are very few nice parts of the city. I lived in one of the nice parts but I was in a house, not an apartment. The vast majority of the apartments are very old, but I have no clue if any are decent. The apartments in Thackerville are new, but expensive. New apartments in Gainesville are being built called the Liberty Lofts, but again they are going to be expensive (kind of defeats the point of choosing Winstar, IMO). Now that I think of it, I knew a dealer that was living in a townhome apartment that was pretty nice (for Gainesville). Also, the lady that took care of my dogs lived in a townhome in another part of town that was pretty good.

I live in the hood in Dallas so there was nothing I saw in Gainesville that was too alarming. One time when I was in the Whataburger drive thru at 3am a dude who I had seen in the shopping center 50+ yards in front of my vehicle tried to sneak up on my vehicle from behind. My dogs went crazy wanting to kill him though and the dude changed direction quick. Another time in the middle of the night I saw a guy in a truck repeatedly swerving acting like he was trying to hit the car next to him. I pulled my gun out for that one but nothing came of it. Aside from that it was pretty quiet.

If you're even thinking about this subject, forget about living in California. You will be miserable. You wouldn't believe what's illegal there.

Seems pretty clear you should move to Vegas over this desolate ****hole.

Will your hourly be somewhat higher at Winstar? I don't know, probably. I know nothing about the place. If you're just playing 1/2 or 1/3 the games in Vegas are fine. And since you prefer working the graveyard shift, the games will be far better then too. Plus you'll be in a real city with energy and hot chicks abound.

There is far more to life than just grinding yourself to dust to make the highest possible hourly. The 2/5 in Vegas might be relatively tougher but you aren't playing that to start and it sounds like you're open to moving somewhere new in a few years anyways. Living in an isolated hole for a few extra bucks an hour is highly -EV. Be somewhere you want to live and the poker will follow.

For the winstar the big question would be how much quality playing time can you get there vs Vegas. How easy is it to find a good table etc. That said you need some live playing experience and if you can take a quick three hour drive to get some rent a room and do it.

The WSOP is 6 weeks away you should definitely be playing in Vegas during that time.

There are generally games running at Winstar 24/7. The lone exception to this would be a real slow time of the week like recently I was playing at 5am on a Tuesday and the 1/2 and 1/3 had both already broken. Since they run both 1/2 and 1/3 there is a potential that one or the other will break real late night since they share a similar player pool. However, in general I'd expect both to be running every day and every night.

In terms of the quality of the games, that is hard for me to judge because i've never seen a 1/2 or 1/3 game anywhere that I didn't think was very soft. I'd say the biggest issue at Winstar 1/2 would be stack depths with players nursing short stacks. That shouldn't be too much of an issue at 1/3.

Winstar is a 46 table room which is mostly full on a Saturday Night. Right now there are 30 tables running at Winstar, 8 1/2s, 7 1/3s, 8 2/5s plus Poker Night In America is going on at Choctaw and that's an additional 8 1/2s running right now. In fact, if you are playing at the 1/2 level that makes Choctaw an alternative poker room to consider. However, for higher stakes they only have games running during big tournaments which occur approximately 4 times a year (WSOP, WPT, PNIA, and 1 other one). Playing cash games at Choctaw during the tournament will have a mini-WSOP type of feel. Personally, I'd rather just stay at Winstar though.

Furthermore, I completely disagree about definitely playing during the WSOP in Vegas. It really makes no financial sense when you consider expenses, especially if you are just grinding 1/2 or 1/3. The reason I play a lot in Vegas is because I enjoy playing there. It's certainly not because the games are better because they aren't. Also, I think what a lot of people fail to appreciate is that a lot of cash game grinders come to Vegas during the WSOP which means that the fish to grinder ratio likely improved at whichever casino they came from.

I'm so confused. Bombarbed by contradictory information about where to go. A lot of people (not just in this thread but South Florida also) are telling me Vegas games are super tough and even at 1/2 are 65 - 70 percent regs. A couple guys in the Florida thread said if they were starting out and just cared about grinding for max profit they'd move to Maryland, Tampa, or a remote megacasino like Winstar.

Then there's people saying South Florida is the best. Others saying South Florida is horrible. Others saying Maryland is the best place in the country now, which I find hard to believe since there are only three major rooms IIRC.

There's pros and cons everywhere. This decision would have been a lot simpler back in 2011. Vegas used to be the clear choice and I came into this thinking it still was, but so many people are telling me Vegas has the toughest games anywhere.

Maybe you're right and they're not taking into account that I'd be playing all night when the games are softer. I know this is a tricky question, but can you ballpark comparitive winrates for day games vs. night games at similar stakes (e.g., 1/2)?

Being in a real city would be nice, of course. Dating life would be almost nonexistent in Gainesville, though it's not that far from Dallas area. Still, I'm mostly a loner and can deal with long periods of isolation. Haven't so much as been on a date in three years. So yeah, living in a crap town is a negative, but I think less of a negative for me than most people.

I guess. My only other real interests are guns, knives, chess, and occasionally video games. Nothing for which I specifically need to live in a big city. I was looking forward to making some poker friends in Vegas, which probably isn't much of a possibility at Winstar, but I think I can deal. Just post my hand histories on here.

If I run good I could conceivably move up to 2/5 within a year at Winstar. If I run okay I could do it within two. Low COL means I can put more winnings into my bankroll. And since I saved for a year's living expenses in Vegas, for at least the first 1 - 1.5 years I can put 100% of winnings into my bankroll. Let's say I'm a modest 5BB/hour winner at 1/3 and play roughly 2000 hours a year. That's $30000 I can put on top of my bankroll bringing me to around $40,000 in just a year. I figure a $50000 roll is plenty conservative to play 2/5 there especially since they have 100BB max buy in. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but it seems feasible I could be playing 2/5 after a little more than a year, and ready to move somewhere better within two years.

Why is living in an isolated hole for a few extra bucks an hour highly -EV? Seems by definition +EV, unless it causes me to burn out. But Vegas has all kinds of life rake that a small town doesn't--fancy restaurants, clubs, shows, etc. Seems a lot easier to avoid such traps when they don't exist.

I don't mean to argue with you. I'm just confused as hell about where to move and afraid I'm going to make the wrong decision. I also worry about running super bad and going busto, which is mostly irrational, but even with my bankroll there's still like a 3 to 5 percent risk of ruin at 1/2 and 1/3.

And yeah, I'm not averse to moving every 2 to 3 years, but, for example, moving to Vegas then to Miami is a lot worse than moving to Gainesville then Miami. And my moving to a second poker locale is contingent on me showing sufficient winnings from the first locale. If wherever I move I'm a 2BB/hour winner, I'm going to have to give up on poker. And I'm getting the impression my winrate would be worse in Vegas than many other places.

I don't know, man. I'm getting really tempted to roll one of those tetrahedron dice to decide on (Vegas, Miami, Tampa, Winstar).

Yeah I hear ya man. I've lived the Vegas 1/2 1/3 scene for four months now as a pro, no the games are not that tough or reg infested. There's a share of regs for sure, but with table selection its pretty easy to find a table with none on the weekends, at the most maybe one or two which is still manageable and a +ev table. Plus having LA a few hours drive is really nice as well with even more action due to the short buyins. Wish I could speak from personal experience on SF, but all I have is I know a few pros who chose or considered SF as an option for moving as a pro before, NV and FL both having no income tax is a plus as well. In addition to playing online I'd say Vegas as you have another site to add with wsop, not the largest player pool, but plenty of bad players as well.

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What game do you play in LA? I assume not 1/2....

Normally I opt for the 3/5 game, its a few more starting bb with 40, and plays bigger, and still less than a normal 1/2 buyin.

First of all, I always found it funny that people felt compelled to move to Vegas to grind 1/2. You can literally grind 1/2 anywhere that has a poker room..pretty much anywhere in the country. The games are going to be soft everywhere because it's 1/2.

The word reg can mean different things to different people. Rest assured that the vast majority of players at 1/2 are losing players. It just so happens that many of these losing players play regularly. The main problem I see with the Vegas market is that everyone and their dog that wants to be a professional poker player moves to Vegas. Most of these players fail, but that doesn't mean they leave. Often times they end up getting jobs in Vegas and continue to grind. I think it's pretty much a no-brainer that Vegas has some of the toughest games.

Maryland was the best market in the country after Maryland Live opened because nobody knew how to play poker there. Even the grinders were very inexperienced. I've heard the games have gotten much tougher since then but I'm sure it is still a good market (especially with the new MGM casino that could potentially cater to new players). Florida was the hot spot a couple years ago that everyone wanted to go to. I personally know many grinders that have moved to Florida in the past couple years due to its reputation. That's obviously going to hurt those Florida markets and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize they aren't as good as they once were but does that mean they are bad? Absolutely not.


That's ****ing insane. Perhaps there will be an adjustment period for you in terms of transitioning to live cash games, but if you feel comfortable in the 1/3 games, feel you have an edge, and are winning then I wouldn't wait a year to take shots at Winstar 2/5. I'd take them on the first Saturday.


Honestly, if you lose $6k playing 1/2 and 1/3 in a soft casino like Winstar then there's like a 95% chance that something is off with the way you are playing, and you should just save the rest of your money and go ahead and get a temporary job and grind poker on the side until it starts clicking.

Thanks for the insight. To clarify, I'm not looking to move to Vegas to play 1/2 and only 1/2. The idea is to move to Vegas (or wherever), and start at 1/2 to build a bankroll and launch a professional poker career. There may be tons of places one can play 1/2 but not many of them offer the ability to move up to 2/5+, I would think.


What do you mean it's insane? A $50,000 bankroll is way more than necessary for 2/5? From my calculations that's about what a reasonably good player needs to have a risk of ruin below 3 to 5% (varies based on winrate).

I think most players underestimate the bad side of variance, especially live players. I played something like a million hands online in under a year. That's equivalent to about 17 years of live poker. I saw insane swings in this period despite playing a low variance playstyle. I had an entire month where my winnings were negative. That's equivalent to like a 1.5-year downswing in live poker. I reviewed my play carefully and it was totally standard. Just getting nothing but crap cards and coolers over and over and over. It seemed impossible at the time, but then I learned about variance and those kinds of downswings are to be expected occasionally (for live players, maybe like twice a career). You're right that if I lose 6k at 1/2 and 1/3 I'm probably playing bad, but I wouldn't say 95% chance. I expect about a 10% chance I could start off on a downswing like that, regardless of play, which is why I approach bankroll management so conservatively.

That said, if I go on a heater or otherwise feel I'm crushing the 1/2 and 1/3 games, I'm certainly willing to take shots at 2/5. But if I suddenly get stuck several buy-ins at 2/5 before I'm properly bankrolled, I'm moving back down.

My understanding is he has to move regardless. You can get a decent safe weekly in Vegas for 250/wk or less, plus there are plenty of other options for reasonable housing. You definitely do not want to start you poker great in Vegas in July/August the two toughest months to play. I've seen the WSOP be really tough or easy lately it's been easy.

What's wrong with going to the Winstar and trying it out for a few weeks? That's a reasonable choice. You can always move to Vegas later. Or play 2/5 in Vegas when you get a large enough bankroll. Plus Winstar has 2/5 I'm sure.

Vegas is a another good choice. And I think you'd find more social outlets.

South Florida's casino's are pretty scattered imo.

Maryland is expensive.

LA is expensive

Off the top of my head there are over a dozen poker markets in the US that regularly run 2/5.

Live games are really really soft. We just discussed this a bit in another thread, but essentially based on my experience and experience of top 2/5 players I have talked to, it is very rare for a top player to go on a $10k downswing at 2/5, even in Vegas where 2/5 is more difficult and buyins are often deeper. That's not to say you shouldn't have a larger roll than $10k. I think it's important for piece of mind but waiting until you have $50k is insane because you are just throwing money down the tube if you are avoiding games that are super beatable which you are in fact rolled for (or can take shots at).

It's great that you have an online background. I also have an online background. However, this is an apples to orange comparison. No good players are going on a 1.7 year downswing in live poker. Attainable winrates are way too high. A good 2/5 player should at most have 1 or 2 losing months in a year, and they shouldn't be nearly as big as one's winning month. IE one can potentially win $15k in a month but the losing months will be more like -$3k.

I'm not saying because you are playing bad per se. I'm saying because it may take time to solve the puzzle that is live low stakes. I don't know your exact background but there is going to be a learning curve particularly if you are not just transitioning from online but also from MTTs. The play in live poker may be worse, but that doesn't mean you know the best lines to take to maximize your winrate. Nor do you have the necessary live experience to make optimal decisions in every spot.

The thing is you have $35k saved and plan on growing. I guess we can go ahead and take the $24k out given that every person would be wise to have 6months of living expenses and because poker is not a typical job then having 12 months of living expenses is admirable IMO. Still, that leaves you with $11k bankroll. As I stated before, you should get a job well before your lose $11k at 1/2 and 1/3. To do otherwise, is degeneracy IMO.

I'm only recommending you take shots at 2/5 if you are running good, so perhaps you win $1k, then you can take 1 or 2 shots at a Saturday 2/5 game. This is not degeneracy. You still have over $10k for 1/3 and you will be taking shots at games that will probably only have 0 to 2 winning players per table. It's not a wide stretch to think that a good online player could come in and be a favorite in these games right out of the gate. You don't have to be as good as the best 2/5 grinders..you only need to be better than the players at your table.

BTW, that recommendation is just for Winstar. in Vegas I'd be much more inclined to stay at the 1/3 level for quite some time to develop my live poker game (albeit, it should be noted the vast majority of my Vegas hours have come on Weekdays....and I don't really have a good idea of how soft the weekend games are)