I'd be happy for a subjective answer from a non-white person. It has relevance to my future plans. It's as reasonable of a concern as asking what is a safe but affordable neighborhood to live in if moving to Vegas.

" I'd be happy for a subjective answer from a non-white person,"

So not interested in an objective answer from a white person?

Carrying large amounts of cash is going carry risks anywhere you go, not just from a very minute number of corrupt cops. You're more likely to get robbed by a civilian. That's why they invented banks and boxes at casinos. Basic information like crime statistics listed by neighborhood, home/rental values, COL can be looked up and ballparked by people in the area. Locations, rake rates, hours of operation of card rooms, # of games, quality of games, soft games, nit games, etc can be gathered from the experienced poker players. Other than how good a game is, it has nothing to due with a subjective opinion. That is not anywhere near the same as asking about the level of corruptness or racism in several police departments covering an entire region. You're basically asking if the cops in south Florida are more racist/crooked than the cops in Vegas.

That is an entirely different discussion that has little to do with poker. What type of answers were you expecting to find here? Something like "I'm non-white and I've never been robbed," or "I got robbed one time" or "I heard about one guy that got robbed one time on Main Street in Miami." And then base your major decision to move your life and residence on that, a few individual 2p2 users' experiences with an issue such as this? If there is an epidemic of cops robbing people, in this day and age with cell phone cameras and social media, its not likely to go on long unreported in the news media, with the stories only being brought to light on 2p2.


Sorry to everyone for the undergrad-OMC rant. Or maybe OMC, Jr. rant? Not as old as I feel, and I was previously enjoying this thread living vicariously thru OP.

I agree with most of this. I am a rec player, i did not relocate here specifically for poker but made sure wherever i moved had some poker in the area.
WSOP in vegas is a great time for poker, Mid July to September is awful time in vegas for poker. SF gets busier in the winter, also there are busier times when the tournament series are at the Hard Rock in Hollywood for example which is 4-5 times a year at least.

I have lived in SF for 5 years. Depending on where you live will depend on what you pay. Here is my rent history, shared a place with my brother:

2012-2013 - $1700 for 2 bed/2 bath 5 blocks from downtown Fort Lauderdale - 1100SF

2013-2015 - $1700 - 2 bed + den/2 bath - 1500SF, with 1 car garage, hollywood - 3 miles from hard rock

2015-2017 - $2150 - 2 bed /2 bath 1500SF - 2 blocks from downtown fort lauderdale.

We tried some different areas and came back to downtown FTL area as we liked it better (I am late 30's, he is early 30's) even though it was more expensive however the part of hollywood we were in was very nice and safe areas and 1 beds could be had for ~1300.

There are still plenty of safe areas in the burbs down here that are cheaper. I would imagine that any place you rent in this area, if you compare the level of safety etc... for that price in LAS that in SF the area will be at least as safe as the one in LAS.

As far as games. Like vegas there is going to be a variety, different buyin levels but i don't think the level of softness between LAS/SF and any other region is vastly different. I would base this stuff more on where you want to live.

Also, if you have living expenses and 12k for poker, i would play 2/5 anytime your roll is > 10k, less than that, move down to 1/2. If after a while you lose at 2/5, move down to 1/2, win back, lose at 2/5 rinse repeat then i would consider staying at 1/2 until you save more money/improve.

If you are going to be using poker as the main source of income you want to be at 2/5 ASAP, it seems like you have experience so while you have roll and expenses i would try it out for a bit instead of just starting at 1/2.

You also seem to be interested in some tournaments, the $3-500 tournaments crush the guarantees every time with 1mill Plus prizepools for the $300 and 2mill Plus for the $500 so if you happen to run well and bink one you are really getting paid.
The latest one just wrapped up.
$300 prize pool - 932 k
$500 prize pool - 1.5M
https://www.seminolehardrockpokeropen.com/

I think this is a little naive. There is a very strong trend towards police abusing civil asset forfeiture laws to seize cash, and this has definitely attracted the attention of liberal and libertarian advocacy groups.

The part that ties into race is that factual guilt is not a factor in civil asset forfeiture - only the subjective assessment of probable guilt by the officer. So, if you get pulled over, and the police find $10k on you, whether you get to keep it or not does not depend on whether it's drug money but only whether the policeman THINKS it's drug money. And this is a problem for non-white people because they are disproportionately stopped and disproportionately viewed negatively by police.

And yes, geography definitely plays a role. Some police departments are way more aggressive in asset forfeiture than others. Regional attitudes towards race make a big difference.

I don't live in south Florida or Vegas, but agree it's a question worth discussing as an ethnic or racial minority. Edit: to be clear, not the MAJOR factor, but definitely some sort of factor.

In the end, I think your post has a lot of generally good tips. I would also probably use safety deposit boxes or deposit accounts to avoid cash altogether. If I had to carry cash, I would carry enough big chips so that I can tell the officer I'm a professional poker player and be believed. But realize that for non-white people, and especially black people, that's not as effective as it is for white people.

Shai,
You mentioned above that there is a lot of 5/10 in Las Vegas. You should watch Andrew neeme on YouTube, he is a professional poker player and blogs about his life on YouTube. from listening to him it does not look like there's a lot of 5/10 games in Vegas.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do, but you should definitely start by taking a scouting trip of a few weeks to wherever you decide to go.

As far as carrying cash with you and the dangers therein, there is really no reason to carry more than 3k, that's two sessions of larger 2/5. If you leave the casino with 5k, turn 3k of it to chips for your next trip and stash in your sock or something. I live in Texas and get my cash when I get to vegas, Bank of America is everywhere. No need to carry large sums if you don't want too.

My thoughts below refer to night games. I would avoid day games across the board in Vegas as they will be full of regs and nits.

I haven't played much 1/2 in Vegas, but from what I've seen, it's similar to 1/2 everywhere...pretty soft and beatable. But if you're playing full time I don't think you should be too concerned with these games as stacks are just too shallow.

I've only played 1/3 a few times at Aria, and it seemed pretty non-descript, and at the Wynn. The Wynn game has a buy in max of $500 (Aria is $300) so it is a bigger game though in my opinion plays pretty nitty. Lots of grinders and regs at the Wynn game, many of them also play 2/5 at other casinos (for instance, the Bellagio 2/5 has a $500 max buy in).

Tons of regs at 2/5, everywhere. No avoiding that. Constantly seeing the same faces. To your comment that "if I can't beat low stakes regs in Vegas my poker career is going to be pretty limited anywhere", I don't think you're going to be looking to outplay or tangle with these regs much. You might have a slight edge on them (some of them are regfish), they might have a slight edge on you, but bottom line is playing at a table full of 2/5 Vegas regs isn't going to be very profitable for you in the long run. If you think they are small time players that you can roll right over, this will be an eye opener for you.

I haven't played 5/10, but from what I've heard, the games are tough and reg heavy.

I think your assumption that there are tons of 5/10 games running all the time in Vegas is incorrect. From what I've been told by a couple 5/10 players, the games have dried up and sometimes can be hard to find, so frequently 5/10 pros drop down and play 2/5. That should give you an idea of how competitive the poker marketplace has become in Vegas.

At the end of the day, rent an Airbnb in Vegas for 2-3 months and see how it goes. If you don't like it, the worst outcome is you still spent 2-3 months with good weather and poker. I've been out here for the past 2.5 months because I had the time and opportunity to do so (never with the intent of becoming a full time pro) and it's been a great experience. I like Vegas as a city, but my time here has only affirmed for me that Vegas is actually a pretty bad option if you're looking to print money full time grinding. I can count the amount of good games I've found here on two hands...almost one.

Come out for a few months, if you like Vegas, no doubt the poker will work out for you. If you find you aren't in love with Vegas as a city, there are likely more profitable markets for you out there.

I don't think he was talking specifically about asset seizure and forfeiture. Even that happening is far less likely than getting robbed by someone that follows you home from the casino, or some random. In a seizure they'll take the car and everything of value. If you've got no history of illegal activities and are paying taxes its not hard to show. You might be out legal fees but not your whole roll. And to say its a strong trend is reaching. They are targeting people where they know it will hold up. Not seizing 10k off random traffic stops. I have no doubt some good people are getting screwed, but its not typical. IMO BD was baiting trying to turn this into a racial/anti police thread. He's obviously not going to get a credible assessment of the situation from whatever area on this forum.

I disagree with a bunch of stuff but agree with your general message - worry first about robbery, and if the original question wasn't honest, I apologize for responding.

Several gamblers have already gotten their rolls seized after traffic stops (and if it costs 5k to get back your 10k I don't count it as a win). I think the stories will become more and more common, so I'm willing to defer the argument until a future date.

OP,

Your non-huge rolls and the lower cost of living makes Vegas the clear favorite. Especially for the next few, busy Vegas months.

Do you have links to any stories about this? I believe you, just want to read more about it.

I'm willing to hear you out if that's a real big issue. When you say several, how many is that? Honestly I'm not usually carrying around more than 2k for the limits I play. I may bring 5k to vegas when I go and keep the rest in the bank.

We moved to LV two weeks ago..Non-weekend I've found the best time to play is from around 3AM to 8 AM..The NL Holden action is brutally slow during regular hours Late Sunday thru Early Friday (based on a small sample)...Pretty much the same for PLO although it's definitely easier to find weak players

Weekends? For the most part, I find the Vegas PLO (also 1session of Big O) games soft ..Havnt tried hold em..

William Davis and John Newmerzhychy

https://www.scribd.com/document/2682...eiture-Lawsuit

There used to be more, and I posted more cases a few years ago when this topic came out. To be honest several that I posted were blackjack rather than poker, but they were still very relevant.

John Oliver had a segment on how widespread it is, article about it here and the segment can be found probably on YouTube:

http://ij.org/john-oliver-on-civil-f...an-we-thought/

Hey everyone, sorry for dropping out of the thread for a week with no notice! I didn't lose interest or anything. I just became extremely ill very quickly and have spent the last week so weak from this intestinal virus I couldn't eat or drink, which quickly led me to not being able to move or think I was so dizzy and feverish. Anyway, I am feeling much better now and hope to get back into this before I've lost everyone!

Thank you for sharing all this. 2000 is a lot more than I think I can spend. I could only justify if it if I knew my hourly would be 175%+ what it would be in Las Vegas. I am not prying, and feel free not to answer this, but if you don't mind, could you tell me what your hourly was in Vegas vs. SF? Or use relative terms if you don't want to give absolute numbers.

In Vegas it looks like I can get a decent 2 bedroom probably for around $1000. Are there areas in South Florida remotely comparable? $1300 for a 1-bedroom seems nuts, unless it's really nice, but I'm guessing that's the low end.

My main concern is do these areas you mention still have good proximity to casinos? As far as crime, I only care to the extent there are like drug dealers pushing crack on my doorstep. E.g., if the area just has a 100% higher murder rate than, say, Miami, I don't really care. If I get randomly murdered, I get randomly murdered.

Unfortunately, the areas I want to live don't have access to good poker or are in other countries where immigration is nearly impossible for me, since typically you need a job, a spouse, or to invest a good chunk of capital in that country to move there, and those are all non-starters.

Las Vegas honestly seems pretty crummy in a lot of ways. But for me Florida isn't much better. I hate the heat, but especially humidity.

I'm trying to launch a poker career so I'm not going to decide primarily on where I'd like to live anyway. I have X dollars saved and need to determine where it's easiest to make a winrate that covers my costs. I do have about a years' living expenses saved, but that was planned for Vegas, so in South Florida 24000 would probably get me, what 2/3 through the year before I need to be winning consistently enough on poker to rely on that alone?

This seems like good advice, but I keep hearing how tough the 2/5 games are. I do expect I can beat them but probably not immediately. I expect some kind of transition period for me to get really used to live play, during which I will be making mistakes or missing things that cost my hourly. I think I will be fully acclimated in a month. Maybe less, but I'm trying to project my abilities conservatively so I don't get overconfident and bust out.

You are correct that I am interested in tournaments. Online I was a better tournament player but live I don't think I am bankrolled for them. Thank you very much for the information and for a helpful post in general!

@kb5zcr

Thanks for the info. My impression that there are 5/10 games at Vegas casinos comes from certain casino websites and the website pokeratlas.com, where one can click on individual casinos to see what games are spread and how often. Several casinos are listed as "always" for how often they have 5/10 going. IIRC the Bellagio, Wynn, Venetian, and Aria all had this claim. Bellagio also was listed as "always" for 10/20. Is this just wildly inaccurate? I'm having trouble understanding how there could be few 5/10 games in Las Vegas. If not there, where are they? Where are the mid and high stakes games, besides LA?

@Keaton

Thank you for posting. I want to clarify the meaning of the word "reg" = regular, I assume? Are regs assumed to be grinders and profitable players? I recall online there were many players I had thousands of hands with and most were bad. One could definitely call them "regs" in a sense but they couldn't be profitable. Maybe break-evenish. If reg=profitable, then some people are saying for instance of the 7 out of 10 players at Las Vegas 1/2 games are regs, or grinders. I recall reading about the live games a few years ago when I considered moving and there was almost universal consensus the 1/2 games were super soft with maybe a couple good players per table. I understand the effects of Black Friday, and loosening of poker laws in other locales have probably made the games tougher, but are there seriously 2 fish per table at 1/2?

When I said "if I can't beat low stakes regs in Vegas my poker career is going to be pretty limited anywhere" I didn't mean go looking to play them. My point was more that if 6 or 7 of my 9 opponents are regs at 1/2, they must surely be bad, because plenty of players crush these games. Or so I thought. Ergo, if I'm not good enough to beat 1/2 in Vegas despite the regs, I'm probably not good enough to make a living on poker anywhere. Would you say that is accurate?

Where in your opinion are the best 2/5 and 5/10 games? My general plan was move to Vegas, play until I can beat 5/10, then move to LA. It doesn't work if I move to Vegas, play until I'm break even at 2/5, then move to LA and jump into the 5/5 games. Sounds like a recipe for going busto. I need an alternate plan if Vegas doesn't work.

Three months doesn't seem long enough to determine if I'm a winning player at a particular stake or in particular how much of a winning player. I figure it takes years for variance to level out, but anyway I've planned for one year. If Vegas sucks after one year but I can afford it, I could try moving to Florida to play 1/2. Such cross-country moves are insane, though. I've done it a couple times.

-----------------------------------

About the police issues people have brought up, would it be a viable solution to keep one's cash in a locked container in the trunk? It's illegal for police to search a car for no reason, but I'm not naive enough to think they don't. However, it's hard for even crooked cops to justify a need to open a locked container in the trunk with their usual BS (making sure subject could not shoot me with his cunningly concealed trunk lockbox pistol, e.g.).

I've been pulled over a lot and I've found many times the police are dishonest, especially in Texas. About a month ago I was just sitting in my car in a store parking lot doing something on my phone when an officer sneakily approached from my blind spot then seemed to materialize at my window. Said she got a call about "suspicious behavior" but refused to elaborate. For the record I'd been in the parking lot for like 5 minutes. Police can't stop people for suspicious behavior anyway. You need reasonable suspicion, not arbitrary suspicion. But so many cops just "go with their gut" they'll ignore your Constitutional rights if for any reason you seem suspicious or out of place to them. Ah..don't get me started

Anyway, this issue does worry me a little, but I shouldn't be carrying more than $1000 at a time to and from my games, for a while at least.

Some answers to your questions, and additional thoughts:

1. If you're just looking to play 1/2 for the next year or so, you really shouldn't spend much time worrying about 5/10 games. You're so far off from that level that it's a largely irrelevant topic. Move to Las Vegas. It's cheap to live there and the weather is great.

1/2 games are definitely soft and beatable in Vegas, as they are just about everywhere.

2. I think I noted in my post that some regs are regfish are not very good. But by and large, by reg I mean a full time grinder, or a pro. Most 2/5 Vegas pros are pretty solid. They are likely winning players, and relatively speaking will make far fewer mistakes than tourists. Playing at a table of 2/5 Vegas regs isn't going to be super profitable (unless you're a total crusher). And there are so many Vegas 2/5 regs/pros that many 2/5+ games are going to be saturated with grinders.

3. Most good poker players who move to Vegas never are able to beat the 5/10 there. Nothing wrong with having that as your goal. But realistically, you can assume that if you can become a winning 2/5 player in Vegas, you should be happy with that outcome. If having that as your realistic ceiling is a major issue, you should think twice about moving to Vegas, in my opinion.

Having said that, if you're at the 1/2 level and are okay with grinding out a modest living for a year or two, Vegas is a very reasonable option. I think the 2/5 and 5/10 in Veags is the toughest out there. But at 1/2, it's still plenty soft to grind out a very modest living.

You don't want to have to count on 5/T anyway. There are going to be many hours where you can't find a good game. The prime games might only run 10 or 20 hours per week.

.12am to 9 am in Vegas is a totally different poker environment than 10Am to 10 PM.. no matter the game or blinds

These 2 lines would give me pause. Live poker is a very different animal than online.

Please elaborate. Are there fewer games at night? Softer? My assumption has been the night games are softer, but logically probably fewer going. And for the record I am a total night owl, which is one reason Vegas appeals to me over other markets. Most other places, I can't wake up at 8 or 9 PM and grind midnight to dawn.

@Keaton

Thanks again for the response.

1) You're right, I shouldn't be worrying about 5/10 now. My own projections, just on bankroll building, suggest it would likely take me several years to be sufficiently rolled to play 5/10, especially if I have a barely positive winrate, which is likely. I am curious though, where are the 5/10 games besides LA and Vegas? Also, my fear is even if I can crush 2/5 it will take a while for me to be able to move to LA and play 5/5. Then again, that's not that big a leap. I'd just rather know beforehand I can beat 5/10.

2) Sounds reasonable.

3) 2/5 as a ceiling isn't a major issue if I can make a decent hourly. What does a typical winning 2/5 player make in Vegas? I know it varies, but I'm happy with ballpark estimates now. For that matter, what can one expect to make at 1/2 and 1/3? I looked into this a few years ago and 1/2 players were making anywhere from $10 to $30 hourly, I think. For me $10 is too low. I would be reasonably satisfied with $20/hour. Could probably live on $15/hour but wouldn't want to long term.

Also I'm planning a trip to Vegas in 2-3 weeks. I can only stay for about a week. Probably make another thread about it, suggestions for casinos to stay at and such.

suggestion for parking; free at wynn/encore. also free at ph/miracle mile. if the $$ of parking is an issue for you early on, you have the option of parking free and walking to poker.

As far as 2A, VA is on the opposite end of the spectrum from DC and MD

I'm not an expert, but to my knowledge, there is regular 5/10 in Vegas, LA, Florida, Silicon Valley, and NYC. I'm sure it can be found elsewhere, though maybe not consistently.

I wouldn't get too caught up in 2/5 vs 5/10. For instance, some 2/5 games are capped at a $500 buy-in, others might be capped at $1,500 or even uncapped. I've played at 1/3 games which were deeper and better than the 2/5 at Bellagio which is pretty nitty and a cap of $500.

Also, you're so far away from playing 5/10 that it's really irrelevant at this point.

Regarding win rates, that's totally player dependent. Andrew Neeme has a good vlog where he discusses average win rates at different levels in Vegas. At 1/2 I assume your winrate in Vegas would be fairly comparable to anywhere else.

Good luck to you.

To be clear, 5/10 in the Silicon Valley is regular but not consistent. You would have to travel between a few places and all together the total number of hours you can play in a week is not super high.