It would be interesting to calculate your "theo" or theoretical loss over this stretch of play. I know you know that VP is -EV, but seeing the gap between what you "should have" lost and what you ended up winning might put it in a different light.

For sure they tried to sneak the charges by you. They know your dad will only play there, so they figure there's no downside to trying. It's not like he'll storm off in protest, never to return. Big time slimey move by them.

Agree with all the comments about the Wynn purposefully getting the comp wrong. Oh well, just part of the game I guess. I remember a few high roller TRs where the poster actually got his theo report every day, and corrected quite a few "mistakes". His cash back was directly linked to his theo so it was really important to him to get right.

This should be easy to do. If we assume full pay TDB with perfect play is 99.54% payback-
- 500,000$ coin in
- assume 1% hold
- theoretical loss = 5000$

My guess is, over all my trips to vegas this is probably about right. I've had some good winners, but obv a lot of losers as well. I'm sure if I averaged out all my trips it'd probably come out in the neighborhood of -5k/trip.

Cheaper than some hobbies I've had. Like racing cars.

Leon, the correct odds for 3x quads is about 1 in 5M since you had 5 tries to hit, still astronomical obv

Thanks, I didn't count the other two hands bc I just wanted to calculate "odds of a pair turning into quads, 3 times". I know that technically I had two other shots that hand haha.

Hi Leon, thanks for another great ride and congrats on the winning trip

I'm in Vegas next month for WSOP and am gonna throw an evening of VP into my trip all because of how much I've enjoyed your reports.

Can you please give me/us a few key pointers on which machines to look out for...ie what payout numbers we can look for on quads/royals/other wins to let us know it's a good machine/payout structure or a bad one? Like I see you writing 9/5 or whatever but I don't know what that means and what to look out for

Also if there was a beginner's document or two we could/should read so we know basic strat, that would be A1 ossum. And lastly what game you would recommend we play for max fun/sweat purposes

Thanks

Going home with all of that extra cheddar should result in only one thing: high stakes craps trip (and subsequent trip report)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How much cash do you have on hand for this type of trip (~3 days). Include your dad's contributions as well (or not). Are you bringing ~10% of this with you to cycle through? Around $50K?

No way I bring that much. I don't think I've ever brought more than 20k. My usual tends to be 10-15k.

Good luck!

For essentially every type of game, the paytable will be determined by the full house/flush payout. So for example, "9/6" means 9 credits for a full, 6 for a flush (at 1 credit bet).

You need to look at the type of game you're playing to know if it's a good paytable or not, though, based on those numbers. For example, 9/6 double double bonus is considered "full pay" (it's the best you're going to find, I think ~99% payback with perfect play). However, 9/6 on triple double bonus (my game) is significantly worse- I believe 98% payback (as opposed to full pay, 9/7 TDB which is 99.54% payback). So you need to consider the game you're playing.

I'd go on wizardofodds.com, they have a good section where you can input your type of game, as well as the various numbers on the paytable. It will crunch the numbers for you right then and there and tell you the % payback. For all common variants, the paytables are already calculated and you can just look it up.

I'd also go on videopoker.com and familiarize yourself with the common variants. Lastly, find any of the VP tutorial apps out there which will not only let you practice for free, but also help you with the correct plays.

Finally, for my money I think triple double bonus provides the most fun/opportunity for a real score, which is why I play it. Many large hands and very swingy. The opposite is "jacks or better" which is the basic game and the one all others are based off of. In that game, a royal pays 4000 credits (top prize), but everything else is much smaller. So the variance is far lower, you'll be able to play for a long time but except for a royal you have no chance of a big score.

You could also learn variants like ultimate X which add a ton of wild swings and fun to the game, but I wouldn't do that until you understand the base game cold (so learn triple double bonus BEFORE trying triple double bonus ultimate X, etc).

Be prepared to not find any full pay machines for less than 1$ credits, though. There are several websites that provide lists of which casinos have which game/paytables which are pretty accurate but not perfect.

Vegas has caught onto this a bit. They are posting games with full pay FH/Flush payouts but are taking out some of the win on other hands. So you really need to check the full paytable to make sure you're not getting screwed.

Yeah, but the bad part of playing the high variance games for only one day is you could easily go through the valley without ever making it to the next hill.

I think Red Rock has some quarter machines that pay well. Also, playing small is a double-edged sword. I wanted to experiment with a new (to me) game so I played dimes. Unfortunately I hit a royal and only got $400 for it. I don't expect many royals in my life so I want them to count.

thanks Leon, awesome summary

That's ridiculous but not surprising. Guess they'll do anything to get (more of) an edge, just like we would. Yeah, the couple of times I've been to Red Rock the paytables looked decent at small denoms, but I didn't see any full pay machines (not that I looked that hard).

Yup, I've even seen games described as "Double Bonus" etc, but the pay tables don't resemble anything like DB, lol.

Odd variant games (eg, UX, deuces wild) are another place they commonly try to get us since the "full pay" version isn't nearly as well known- tweaking the multipliers, payout for 5 of a kind, etc.

Generally the exotics (UX, STP, Dreamcard) are net positives - correct?

If you mean the additions make the game "less -EV" than the same paytable base game, assuming perfect play, it's generally true.

If you mean they tip them to overall +EV, I don't think so. I can't think of a single example.

The other thing to consider is "perfect play" for some of the exotics is damn-near impossible to calculate, let alone learn. Wizard of odds discusses some strategy changes for UX for a few different types of game- it all depends on the base game, AND the value of the multiplier. The holds can differ on any number of situations. Basically I figure when I play UX I'm going to make mistakes, it simply can't be helped.

I don't play STP, and I've never seen dreamcard with a "full pay" paytable.

Yeah I didn't mean make a sub 100% game a >100% game but that the 3/5/10 line exotic is generally a "better" game than standard 3/5/10 play machine with equal pay tables

Always appreciated, Leon. Thank you.

I started playing Triple Double Bonus Extra Draw Frenzy.

When you draw 3 of a kind, you get extra hands/chances, depending on a random multiplier.

I have found a major flaw with this game.

If you draw 3 of a kind with premium cards (A,2,3,4) and 1 kicker (A,2,3,4) it will NOT allow you to keep the kicker.

Due to that reason alone, I will never play TDB on Extra Frenzy again..only DDB.

So lame..

Yes, that is lame. What is even MORE lame is that they can turn on the "correct" holds, but your casino apparently has chosen not to. Maybe you can ask them to turn it back on? At my local casino, initially EDF made the "right" hold- premium trips, it would also hold a kicker if dealt. Then, the game went away for months. I clamored for it to be brought back, and it finally was but now TDB wouldn't hold kickers just as you described.

So rude- and I'm not playing DDB just to make hands that are worth 1/2 or 1/3 as much. Screw them. But anyways, it seems to be something that can be toggled on/off.

I remember reading somewhere that (at least in Vegas, anyway) those exotic variants that charge extra credits are not allowed to be of a lower EV than the base game with the same pay table.

Never heard that, but it sounds good. With all the mistakes people will make, I suspect the games end up more -EV for them anyways.

Just one comment that this reflects pretty standard operating procedure across most resorts (an annoying one, admittedly). Essentially what typically happens is the charge posts to your room and then once or twice a day, the host will come in and review it and then knock it off the bill. So if you were seeing charges that should've been comped typically it means that your host hasn't had a chance to review it yet (this can be multiple days if they are off on the tail end of your trip). I've always checked out with charges on my room from the last 1-2 days and the host always takes care of it within 24-48 hours of me leaving, without me having to mention anything.

On the 'RFB' side, it is annoying for sure to not know where you stand, but for the most part they're very reasonable about it unless you've underplayed them multiple times vs your average. On the casino's end, you can get why they won't just write you a blank check, since the 'B' part can easily be tens of thousands if you go crazy on high end wine

With respect to theo tracking, you're absolutely right (and I'm guessing you're referencing some of ND's reports where they kept trying to screw him over on theo), but that was unlikely the factor here I think.

Yea, I know that with all the weird multipliers at ultimate X that the strategy there is different from the base game, so I don't even bother playing it because I know I'll be making so many mistakes