I've thought about bac before, but honestly the thought of even money wagers doesn't excite me (same issue as blackjack). Have to bet a lot to win a lot, etc. I prefer the "bet small and loseloseloselose every once in a while hit something big" aspect of VP.

Unfortunately, I believe I am getting screwed tax-wise from my play and there's not much I can do about it. My adjusted gross income from VP puts me into the highest tax bracket (LOL 4.5 million AGI, I kid you not), and that doesn't have anything to do with losses that you can then write off. Plus, you can only make certain deductions and I use up a bunch by writing off the loss (that could otherwise be allocated to something else deductible). So, yeah, my play is really hurting me tax-wise.

Leon,

Is this because all you're "coin out" and hand pay "jackpots" are being counted up as gained income? If so that is super brutal

Don't you get a statement from Wynn that nets everything out?

I'm not here to turn this into an accounting thread but that is not how it works. Leon is describing what I would expect.

Yes, they add up all of that stuff as income. Unfortunately The Rumor is right- income and net result are two completely different things. You can deduct off all of your winnings if you post a net loss but that's different than income.

The way I've heard it described- the winnings are income just like if you showed up for work. If you make 100,000$, what you decide to do with that money is up to you. If you burn it or spend it, at the end of the day your net might be zero but you still made 100k. You didn't MAKE zero. Same thing with gambling- income is what I won. If I chose to put it back into the machine, well... I might be posting a net loss but as far as the IRS is concerned that's my problem.

Leon - love this thread! You are slowly turning me into a VP degen.

Quick question - what % if any do you tip on handpays? Or is it a standard tip amount regardless of the amount you won? I am going to play quite a bit of UX this weekend and want to be prepared for the inevitable...
Thanks!

Really interesting. I always thought taxes on gambling was like taxes on a business or stock and you are only taxed on income. If you can you show you didn't win at gambling you don't pay taxes.

But we'd all rather be listed at 4.5 mil and have Doc's tax issues or even 400k than be listed at 40k and taking every little deduction for a refund .

It's not that simple for the reason Leon noted about limitations on your ability to take certain deductions if you have a very high gross income

Keep in mind that someone itemizing gambling losses is also itemizing things like state taxes, mortgage int, etc. Those deductions can potentially be impacted.

The specifics of this are not important other than it's fair to say someone who resides in California with a decent income probably has a decent amount of other deductions that they would be itemizing.

Leon I don't want to know what you pay your accountant

Enough. Or not nearly enough, depending of the situation

Depends on what I hit. 1-2k, 10 bucks. 4k, 20. 8k 40. The few times I've hit over 10k it has varied between 60-100- I think I tipped 100$ when I was dealt 4 aces w/kicker @ 50c credits for 10k, but knowing what I know now I think I should have tipped 60

Exactly this. It's not that I'm paying taxes on winnings/"extra money in the bank" (since there isn't any), but my taxes/deductions on everything else are affected for the worse.

It's not that much. He started off as my wife's business accountant and now does the books for our family. He's no BS which I like; he seems to play a lot of stuff by the book- he could probably save us some in taxes if he really tried, but when I've raised the subject in the past he made it clear he's not going to do anything illegal (or even questionable). I figure at least with him I'm not going to get a nasty surprise visit from the IRS, and as far as the gambling the IRS gets a full run-down of all the W2-Gs anyways so there's really not much room to hide.

The few times I've had handpays there were two people involved, Do you give them 10 bucks each for a 4k payout? It was awkward the way I had to do it - I gave the money to the person that brought the payout and told her it was to be split with the other person.

Yeah, the numbers I listed are the total amount (eg, 20$ for 4k jackpot, 2 people so they get 10$ each). I generally just give the amount and say very clearly, "for you two" or something like that. It's up to them to chop it up. I don't think there's anything awkward about that at all. About the only thing which I've found semi-awkward is when I don't have any small bills and have to ask them to break a hundo so I can tip them; however, I figure they're getting tipped for like 30 sec of work and a lot of people don't tip a dime. I'm not giving a hundred just so I don't have to break a bill- that's idiotic. I've never heard anything but appreciation from the staff so I figure it's all good.

LOL, that's what I did. Partly because I was caught unawares somewhat. If I have a big night at the poker table, or even win a huge pot, I can see it coming. Hitting a handpay, not so much. Part of it was also that I was pretty damn joyful at that moment and I seem not be able to function well mentally when extra happy, as well as when pissed.

When I'm in Vegas I usually stick a half-dozen singles in a back pocket so I can quickly sling a buck or two tip if needed. I think I'll make it a habit to do the same with a couple twenties from now on.

Leon you mentioned black jack being a game where you have to bet big to win big, which is why I don't like it either. I like the bet 5 bucks, win 4k every now and then type betting. So, I've never played craps, is it kinda the same thing as far as you have to bet big to win big? Well, actually I know there's bets that pay like 30 to 1 in craps but when people talk about going on hot rolls or whatever it's called, are they usually just upping their bets?

I gotta try this craps thing one day.

The plus side to craps is that you can "press" using house money and eventually get on a roll betting "big" while really not having that much pocket money out there.

See I never know what stuff like that means lol. Does that mean if you bet 10 bucks and win, then you take original 10 back and leave the other 10, then win again and keep 20 on the bet?

No it means putting all your money out there, then as you win, keeping it out on the table, on top of your original bets.

Right and remember once you win it, it's your money. It's not the "casino's". So really what most people are doing (including me) is making progressively larger and larger bets.

Grandmaster, craps can "get big" fast bc the way a lot of people play (pressing bets as above) coupled with the fact that there are so many available bets and assuming you're betting multiple numbers you're always a favorite to hit something vs a 7 (the loser if you're playing the "right" way) means you're constantly going on these runs where you have some sizable bets out there and are picking up chips every roll. It certainly can be fun- I've had fun rolls countless times, where everyone is laughing and you have more chips out there than the entire session bankroll you walked up with, picking up chips all the time, etc.

The problem is, fundamentally each win is STILL essentially even money to 2x your bet (ignoring the longshots which I don't play). So in my mind you're still "risking a lot to win a lot". And when you have enough "so close" rolls where you've got some great bets out there, and all you need is 10-20 min without a seven but get knifed in the heart over and over, craps starts to lose its appeal.

Either way, yeah give it a try- you only live once and it can be fun.

Gotcha - basically the optimal strat hah. Though, I thought for sure you would have had a 25k+ day at the rate you go at in VP but then again the table has to be on fire for that to happen.

Do it - would be sweet to roll with the VP legend himself if I happened to be in town at the same time.

Thanks man, I'm gonna try it out one day. So it sounds like you can win win and get a bunch of money on the table then lose it all when a 7 comes out but whatever, sounds fun to try out.

Also, one of my favorite casino things is poker tournaments. I might have mentioned that before but im surprised you don't like those, getting to the final table is a crazy rush. I think I've said this to you before. Actually I think I said that last sentence to you before, so maybe I've said this twice. I'm apparently going to say this again in ~6months

Back when I was playing poker I played in a few tournies, both live and online. I think I cashed in 8/10 of them, won one with ~ 200 entrants and 2 seconds (one had 500 runners, other had 50 lol). So I had a pretty good record, small sample size. That said, I find tournies insufferable. Devote hrs at a minimum to an endeavor one likely will walk away with nothing from. Tons of people acting like these are life and death decisions in a 50-100$ buy in tourny. Etc.

I really wanted to eventually play in the WSOP as well, but even that desire has waned with time. Back when I could play, I couldn't find the time and the thought of dropping 10k on something I probably wouldn't cash in didn't appeal to me. Now that I'm more comfortable with dropping 10k, I can't play anymore I'm sure I'm not a favorite, in any case.