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Old 03-12-2019, 03:57 PM   #3176
leon
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Originally Posted by onewayratchet View Post
Hey Leon, long time reader, first time poster... incredible thread, thanks for making the effort to do these reports over the years.

As mentioned above, there for sure are not any better options if you're looking for 9/7 TDB and a resort anywhere close to Wynn's quality (i.e., I assume you're not looking to move your play to the Southpoint).

I'd suggest giving Super Triple Play SDDB a shot though (or another shot if you posted this game already, can't recall off hand).



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Hey man, thanks. I played SDDB a bit in the past, it's offered at my local. I didn't bother to learn the optimal paytables and strategy bc I never committed to the game, but it was fun... as far as I know, the Wynn doesn't have this. So you're saying 7/5 is the "full pay" version of this?

This makes me think of those non-optimal players out there. One of the regulars at the Wynn was literally telling me this past trip how he got dealt 4 aces w/ a jack on this game at Red Rock. He held all the cards reflexively, then UNHELD the jack bc "why would you ever keep a jack", then belated read the paytables and RELUCTANTLY re-held the jack. Literally had no clue about the game he was playing, nor why. Bang. 32k.

So yeah, I suspect the Wynn isn't going to change things back for me
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:59 PM   #3177
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Originally Posted by socccer4life3 View Post
Leon been following along since the beginning this is awesome. As a VP noon can you explain how the different games work ie UX vs tdb vs dbb etc

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There are too many variations out there to list. Wizardofodds and some other websites can give you a good breakdown. Basically the paytables/premium hands/multipliers/other gimmicks change depending on the game, so there's way too many permutations to list out here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sindustry View Post
I can already tell you, there will not be multiplay full-pay TDB, at Dollars, elsewhere on the strip. 9/6 is the best you will get, at the $1+ level for multiplay. Your comp arrangement with your Wynn host will be hard to compete with, elsewhere on the strip. If you are okay with less upfront value, then there are several properties you will probably enjoy...food, entertainment, atmosphere...gaming being equal. In the end, choose where you feel lucky, or have fun, or both. Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

Edit to add: you can always start playing $50 single play full-pay TDBOngoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?. Itís available at a few properties...including Wynn, I believe.

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No single line full pay at the Wynn either
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Old 03-12-2019, 04:03 PM   #3178
sindustry
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

Quote:
Originally Posted by onewayratchet View Post
Hey Leon, long time reader, first time poster... incredible thread, thanks for making the effort to do these reports over the years.

As mentioned above, there for sure are not any better options if you're looking for 9/7 TDB and a resort anywhere close to Wynn's quality (i.e., I assume you're not looking to move your play to the Southpoint).

I'd suggest giving Super Triple Play SDDB a shot though (or another shot if you posted this game already, can't recall off hand).



I play 9/7 TDB when it's available, but SDDB S3P is a much more fun game in my opinion. It has the same or more upside as TDB (Aces w/234 are worth 4000, Aces w/JQK are worth 3200), but a much higher floor (Aces no kicker are worth 1600, 2,3,4 no kicker are worth 800, and non-premium quads are worth 400).

Sure, this hand would have been worth $20k on TDB, but I think it's a small price to pay for all the other benefits (e.g., with dealt aces, you're drawing to 6 kickers instead of 3 and even if you somehow get skunked, it's still 16000 credits):



You have to pay an extra coin per hand, but after adding all of the extra pays on quads, the game essentially plays like TDB. Someone much smarter than me has told me that mathematically the variance on the two is similar and my experience after way too many hands on both games bears that out.

As a bonus, the 7/5 version of SDDB S3P returns 99.06%, not quite as good as 9/7 TDB, a lot better than 9/6 though. Red Rock has this game all over its floor, but if you can convince Wynn to install one, you can tell them you know at least one degen addict willing to run a few million coin in through (or so you heard anonymously on the internet, which basically makes it true).

Anyway, thanks again for all the time you've put into this thread and hope you're current sunrun continues all year!


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On a side note, TDB is now an option on S3P now. I visit RR at least twice a year now, just to get my S3P fix, but as of December 2018, I donít think they upgraded any of their S3P machines with TDB. A couple of my locals, Pala and San Manuel, do have S3P-TDB though.


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Old 03-12-2019, 04:19 PM   #3179
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Originally Posted by leon View Post
Hey man, thanks. I played SDDB a bit in the past, it's offered at my local. I didn't bother to learn the optimal paytables and strategy bc I never committed to the game, but it was fun... as far as I know, the Wynn doesn't have this. So you're saying 7/5 is the "full pay" version of this?



This makes me think of those non-optimal players out there. One of the regulars at the Wynn was literally telling me this past trip how he got dealt 4 aces w/ a jack on this game at Red Rock. He held all the cards reflexively, then UNHELD the jack bc "why would you ever keep a jack", then belated read the paytables and RELUCTANTLY re-held the jack. Literally had no clue about the game he was playing, nor why. Bang. 32k.



So yeah, I suspect the Wynn isn't going to change things back for me
The version at your local sucks unfortunately I took a trip down there hoping it would be better given how good their other games are.

Full pay SDDB-S3P would be 8/5 (99.80%), but I'm not sure that exists anymore now that the Atlantis in Reno lowered theirs (it was the only one I'd ever seen). If you take into account the 0.3% back in free play points at Red Rock though, 7/5 isn't bad.

Yeah, I doubt that Wynn is going to reverse course on this, but I hope they do (selfishly and for the future of this thread).

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Old 03-12-2019, 05:17 PM   #3180
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Only insofar as I'm mentally coming to terms with the need to switch casinos. When my next trip gets closer if there's no resolution I'll have to actually compile a list of my options and weigh pros/cons. I don't want to put that work in until I know the Wynn isn't going to change back.



Another interesting question is what happens if there ARE no better options- do I spite not play at the Wynn anyways? I'll cross that bridge if I come to it.


Cosmopolitan!
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:35 PM   #3181
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

They have full pay TDB at the Suncoast.

They used to have it at Southpoint, but last time I went there most were removed. They still had a few full pay 5-line TDB machiines.

They have some full pay TDB at Ellis Island.

The last one I can think of seeing recently is M Resort.

If I find any more, I'll let you know!
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:50 PM   #3182
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Originally Posted by PayToSee View Post
They have full pay TDB at the Suncoast.



They used to have it at Southpoint, but last time I went there most were removed. They still had a few full pay 5-line TDB machiines.



They have some full pay TDB at Ellis Island.



The last one I can think of seeing recently is M Resort.



If I find any more, I'll let you know!


Where are the ones at M Resort? Iíve only seen single play dollars there at 9/7. Granted, I donít really look around. I only occasionally stop by if Iím driving, to eat the brunch buffet, on the way back to SoCal. Not to speak for Leon, but I know my tastes and spoiledness has gone up over the years and there is only a small handful of properties that I prefer to stay at, on the strip. While M Resort is pretty nice, for off strip props, we tend to go to Red Rock, when bringing the kids.


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Old 03-13-2019, 03:33 AM   #3183
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

Yeah, but there's no bowling at that Wynn dump like there is at South Point!
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Old 03-14-2019, 12:12 AM   #3184
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Originally Posted by leon View Post
There are too many variations out there to list. Wizardofodds and some other websites can give you a good breakdown. Basically the paytables/premium hands/multipliers/other gimmicks change depending on the game, so there's way too many permutations to list out here.



No single line full pay at the Wynn either
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it mentioned. How does one determine the paytable when walking through a casino? my VP is vicarious though you guys.
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:12 AM   #3185
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Originally Posted by mizzoulegend View Post
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it mentioned. How does one determine the paytable when walking through a casino? my VP is vicarious though you guys.
I just figured this out myself. Here’s a link that explains it.

https://www.gamblingsites.com/online...er/pay-tables/
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:50 AM   #3186
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Originally Posted by Bdywax View Post
I just figured this out myself. Hereís a link that explains it.

https://www.gamblingsites.com/online...er/pay-tables/


Thank you!

Itís so simple, or should be, I bet 98 percent of casino patrons have no clue.


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Old 03-14-2019, 12:54 PM   #3187
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Originally Posted by mizzoulegend View Post
Thank you!

Itís so simple, or should be, I bet 98 percent of casino patrons have no clue.


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I would bet it's actually higher than that. Many times in a casino you'll have machines with the same poker game but with 2 different paytables literally right next to each other (or in the same bank), and some players will be playing the worse-paytable one and the better-paytable one will be empty.


Or you could be people like my mom who might play on the better paytable for a bit, decide it's not 'lucky' that day, and switch to a worse paytable machine thinking their luck will be better on that one.
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Old 03-14-2019, 01:09 PM   #3188
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

Also, a quick and easy way to figure out ballpark returns for machines to memorize the returns for the full-pay version of the games, and then subtract 1% for each credit less the full house or flushes pay.

For example, these are the full-pay returns for various games:

9/6 Jacks or Better: 99.54%
9/6 Bonus Poker Deluxe: 99.64%
9/6 Double Double Bonus: 98.98% (10/6 versions are >100% and are very rare, there are some in vegas tho)
9/7 Triple Double Bonus: 99.58%

So suppose you go into a casino and see a Jacks or Better machine with a 8/5 paytable. Well this means it pays 1 less credit for flush and 1 less credit for full house, for 2 credits total, so subtract 2% from 99.54%, and you end up with 97.54%, which is not too far off from the actual return of 97.3%.

Another quick rule of thumb is that if you're playing a machine with a progressive royal flush, for every 1000 coins the royal flush goes up, your return goes up about 0.5%.

So again, suppose you're at that same 8/5 machine but you find out it has a progressive royal that is currently at 6000 coins. This means that it's paying 2000 coins more than normal, and so the return is about 1% higher than normal, so even though the base 8/5 game is about 97.3%, with the royal it's now about 98.3%. Still a horrible game but not quite as horrible as no progressive.

One thing to note is that those payback percentages for full-pay machines are assuming you play the perfect strategy FOR THAT SPECIFIC PAYTABLE. This means that if you're playing a 8/5 machine instead of a 9/6, the perfect strategy will be slightly different. But honestly, that's way beyond the scope of this post, as the strategy differences between 8/5 and 9/6 only make a miniscule difference to the overall return.
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:38 PM   #3189
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

I'll add to be sure you check the specific denomination on the machine of the specific game you are going to play. Some machines offer a game in denominations as low as 5 cents all the way up to $1 or more on the same machine and usually higher denom pays better so if checking a machine be sure to check the paytable for the actual denom you are looking to play.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:14 PM   #3190
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sindustry View Post
Where are the ones at M Resort? Iíve only seen single play dollars there at 9/7. Granted, I donít really look around. I only occasionally stop by if Iím driving, to eat the brunch buffet, on the way back to SoCal. Not to speak for Leon, but I know my tastes and spoiledness has gone up over the years and there is only a small handful of properties that I prefer to stay at, on the strip. While M Resort is pretty nice, for off strip props, we tend to go to Red Rock, when bringing the kids.


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In the M Resort, there were some near Jayde Fusion restaurant, and some near the Ravello lounge. These were .25/.50/1.00 single line machines. Admittedly, it's been ~6 weeks since I've been down to M Resort, so not impossible that they have changed/moved.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:15 PM   #3191
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

Also, there are full pay TDB machines at the Cromwell, very close to the front door. These are dollar machines, and you hardly get any tier credits from playing them, but still... Full Pay
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:17 PM   #3192
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Originally Posted by PayToSee View Post
Also, there are full pay TDB machines at the Cromwell, very close to the front door. These are dollar machines, and you hardly get any tier credits from playing them, but still... Full Pay
Not sure if still there, but the Cromwell had a full pay Multi Strike poker machine, near the back, for quite awhile. Playing that sucker was like having a license to print money..
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:46 PM   #3193
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

Quote:
Originally Posted by onewayratchet View Post
Hey Leon, long time reader, first time poster... incredible thread, thanks for making the effort to do these reports over the years.

As mentioned above, there for sure are not any better options if you're looking for 9/7 TDB and a resort anywhere close to Wynn's quality (i.e., I assume you're not looking to move your play to the Southpoint).

I'd suggest giving Super Triple Play SDDB a shot though (or another shot if you posted this game already, can't recall off hand).



I play 9/7 TDB when it's available, but SDDB S3P is a much more fun game in my opinion. It has the same or more upside as TDB (Aces w/234 are worth 4000, Aces w/JQK are worth 3200), but a much higher floor (Aces no kicker are worth 1600, 2,3,4 no kicker are worth 800, and non-premium quads are worth 400).

Sure, this hand would have been worth $20k on TDB, but I think it's a small price to pay for all the other benefits (e.g., with dealt aces, you're drawing to 6 kickers instead of 3 and even if you somehow get skunked, it's still 16000 credits):



You have to pay an extra coin per hand, but after adding all of the extra pays on quads, the game essentially plays like TDB. Someone much smarter than me has told me that mathematically the variance on the two is similar and my experience after way too many hands on both games bears that out.

As a bonus, the 7/5 version of SDDB S3P returns 99.06%, not quite as good as 9/7 TDB, a lot better than 9/6 though. Red Rock has this game all over its floor, but if you can convince Wynn to install one, you can tell them you know at least one degen addict willing to run a few million coin in through (or so you heard anonymously on the internet, which basically makes it true).

Anyway, thanks again for all the time you've put into this thread and hope you're current sunrun continues all year!


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I play mostly table games . Only some time I vanture out for Video Poker so my knowledge is very limited. I have never seen such machines which pays 4Aces with 2,3,4 as well hefty pay out for 4Aces with K,Q,J !!!
I understand you pay extra per line then normal . Where are these type of games in Las Vegas ? And what are they called ? How can I find it through vpfree ? I will appreciate.Thx
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:11 PM   #3194
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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I play mostly table games . Only some time I vanture out for Video Poker so my knowledge is very limited. I have never seen such machines which pays 4Aces with 2,3,4 as well hefty pay out for 4Aces with K,Q,J !!!
I understand you pay extra per line then normal . Where are these type of games in Las Vegas ? And what are they called ? How can I find it through vpfree ? I will appreciate.Thx

The base game is super double double bonus, and if you just want to play it, you don't have to actually pay anything extra than normal. It's just a VP game like any other.


However, what you're seeing in the picture are 4oak payouts that are doubled, because it's a super triple play variant (which you DO have to pay extra per line for). To clarify, on a base SDDB machine, 4 aces with JQK pays 1600. On super triple play it's doubled to 3200. Same goes for all of the 4oaks.
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Old 03-16-2019, 05:18 PM   #3195
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Originally Posted by riverph7 View Post
I play mostly table games . Only some time I vanture out for Video Poker so my knowledge is very limited. I have never seen such machines which pays 4Aces with 2,3,4 as well hefty pay out for 4Aces with K,Q,J !!!

I understand you pay extra per line then normal . Where are these type of games in Las Vegas ? And what are they called ? How can I find it through vpfree ? I will appreciate.Thx
The bottom pic is from Red Rock, but I think all Stations casinos have this game (7/5 for $1 credits, 6/5 for 50c and below). Rampart has 7/5 for quarters, I think Sputhpoint does too.

Some Caesars properties have Super Triple Play machines, but not with SDDB and the pay tables for the games they do have are horrendous.

There are also other casinos with Super Triple Play but not SDDB (eg, Boyd) or with SDDB-S3P but capped at quarters (eg, Silverton). You can see the full list with the "find in casinos" tool on videopoker.com, but really just go to Red Rock if you want to play this game.

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Old 03-16-2019, 08:09 PM   #3196
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sooga View Post
The base game is super double double bonus, and if you just want to play it, you don't have to actually pay anything extra than normal. It's just a VP game like any other.


However, what you're seeing in the picture are 4oak payouts that are doubled, because it's a super triple play variant (which you DO have to pay extra per line for). To clarify, on a base SDDB machine, 4 aces with JQK pays 1600. On super triple play it's doubled to 3200. Same goes for all of the 4oaks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onewayratchet View Post
The bottom pic is from Red Rock, but I think all Stations casinos have this game (7/5 for $1 credits, 6/5 for 50c and below). Rampart has 7/5 for quarters, I think Sputhpoint does too.

Some Caesars properties have Super Triple Play machines, but not with SDDB and the pay tables for the games they do have are horrendous.

There are also other casinos with Super Triple Play but not SDDB (eg, Boyd) or with SDDB-S3P but capped at quarters (eg, Silverton). You can see the full list with the "find in casinos" tool on videopoker.com, but really just go to Red Rock if you want to play this game.

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Thx for great information.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:13 PM   #3197
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

Leon: Do you always stay on the mountain view side of Wynn? We like to face the strip but a couple of times Ive stayed there and I hear loud music from the clubs real late and my wife can't sleep (I sleep like a champ /humblebrag). You ever hear the clubs? Does anyone have any idea where we should stay at Wynn to not hear the bass?
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Old 03-19-2019, 08:49 AM   #3198
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Leon: Do you always stay on the mountain view side of Wynn? We like to face the strip but a couple of times Ive stayed there and I hear loud music from the clubs real late and my wife can't sleep (I sleep like a champ /humblebrag). You ever hear the clubs? Does anyone have any idea where we should stay at Wynn to not hear the bass?
It's random, I've stayed on both sides and don't have a preference other than room type and being in the Tower Suites. I have stayed in the main section in the past and been kept awake by the club. Pretty annoying if you're not into that scene and/or are kept awake.
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Old 03-21-2019, 04:39 AM   #3199
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

That seems to be the trend these days at most hotels. Luckily last time I went I had some earplugs with me. Thank goodness the Orleans doesn't have a club. Yet.
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Old 03-25-2019, 10:16 AM   #3200
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Re: Ongoing video poker "TR", how long will this last?

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Originally Posted by sindustry View Post
On a side note, TDB is now an option on S3P now. I visit RR at least twice a year now, just to get my S3P fix, but as of December 2018, I donít think they upgraded any of their S3P machines with TDB. A couple of my locals, Pala and San Manuel, do have S3P-TDB though.


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Sorry if itís a stupid search. I searched VP Free 2 for availability for above Machine in Las Vegas only thing comes up is Fremont Casino with single pay 0.25c .
Red Rock, Flamingo and Circus circus shows multi play $1 Machine. Thatís it !
Am I missing out something in search ?
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