Sup guys,

As the title states this is regarding a ban I received this past November while playing Big O at Aria.

If this is better suited for another forum, such as Brick and Mortar, my apologies and feel free to move it. I simply figured I'd post it here and ideally get some advice/help from Las Vegas locals or casino employees who may be somewhat familiar with this type of thing.

This could get fairly long, but I think it's best I include everything that transpired that night.

I was seated at a 1/3 PLO table around 7pm and proceeded to do pretty well over the next 3-4 hours and was sitting there with around 1.5K when the table was about to break. The 3 or 4 guys who wanted to continue playing mentioned that there was already a list for Big O and asked a floor to just change the table to Big O and call the 3 names already on the list.

I decided to get up being that I never played Big O, or any split pot game for that matter, and just watch for a bit and either call it a night or play some NL. Another guy who was playing PLO, don't want to mention names, but his name starts with a P and he is from the east coast, also got up and we just started talking about his move out west and the games in Vegas in general, all while watching Big O getting started. The guys who were left from the PLO game kept baiting me to sit down despite not having played the game before, stating that I was up a decent bit and wanting me to give them a chance to get some of their money back. While this back and forth is going on, a middle aged middle eastern guy sits down who I had seen on previous trips to Vegas and lets just say, he was the kind of guy you want in a game. Vegas P. briefly explained some of the nuances of Big O and I went ahead and sat down.

I keep/make the game fun by always potting if it gets limped to me and everyone is fully aware of the fact that this is my first time playing Big O. I get some really good hands and on a few occasions my big turn and river bets get called partially due to folks thinking that I don't have a clue and/or that I'm just gambling, all of which were true to an extent. I don't consider myself to be good by and means, I just happened to get some really good hands.

Middle Eastern dude, who is sitting directly to my left, proceeds to rebuy for $500 approximately every 20-30 minutes. After stacking off again, he says something to the extent of "man, you are playing this for the first time and keep getting lucky and winning all these big pots. I wish I was as lucky as you. Maybe it's my time to quit for the night!" Needless to say I didn't want him to leave so I offer to switch two cards dark with him when the dealer deals the next hand and tell him that I hope that some of my luck rubs off on him. He is all for it and when the dealer dealt the next hand, he slid me two of his cards while still face down and I let him pick two of mine while still face down, hence dark!

Everyone at the table, including the dealer, laughed at it and everyone enjoyed the action, entertainment, show, whatever you want to call it. I look at my hand and it's trash, so I muck it preflop. Not sure what he did that particular hand, if he did or didn't play it, but nothing big happened or I would have remembered.

Another hour goes by, he is still losing, and he asks me if I would be willing to do it one more time. I agree and again, the dealer deals the hand, he slides me two of his cards face down and I let him pick two mine. At this point a guy across the table who was stuck a decent bit as well says something to the extent of "Man, you guys are holding up the game with all this extra stuff and I don't agree with it, so I'd like a floor to come. Floor comes over, asks what happened and I proceed to explain what happened until that point and let him know that there wasn't any malicious intent, but it was rather all for sh.ts and giggles and essentially everyone at the table agrees and tells the floor that nothing funky was going on. The floor tells me that he can't let us switch cards, even in the dark, declares the current hand dead and instructs us not to do it again. I apologize and continue playing.

Three hours go by and it's early in the AM when a guy in a suit walks up behind me and asks me to gather my chips and follow him to the cage. I oblige and we are met by another guy who introduces himself as Aria Security and asks me to follow him, because they would like to talk to me.

We take an elevator and proceed down some long hallway (Oceans 11 came to mind at this point) into a room with a bench and handcuffs along the wall. I didn't get handcuffed, but I was instructed to have a seat and was asked about my relation to the guy I "shared" cards with. I politely correct them and let them know that I didn't share cards with anyone, but merely switched two cards dark on two occasions. I'm asked over and over again why I did it and what my relation is to the guy. I explain that I offered the guy to switch cards, because he was about to call it quits and I wanted to keep him around and that was my attempt to make it more fun for him.

I also point out that I didn't even play the first hand involved, because it was junk and the second hand was declared dead by the floor prior to any action at all.

After a while one of the security staff tells me that despite him believing me that I wasn't attempting to cheat, he would still be forced to issue me a ban. At this point I'm thinking I'm getting banned for the night or a week or whatever, but he tells me that he is issuing a lifetime ban which encompasses all MGM properties.

I kept stating that I didn't even do anything that could be considered cheating, that I in no way benefited from those two hands involved, that I was winning before while playing PLO and the middle eastern guy not even having been at the table. He seemed to sympathize, but it appeared he was just doing what he was told to do by his supervisor. He did mention that I could appeal the ban, but that I should wait at least six months, but probably closer to a year.

As soon as I got back home to NC I decided to send an email to Kat P. and Adam Altwies explaining what happened and asking them to reconsider banning me. I never heard back and assumed that it may be their policy to not interact in any way with folks who are banned.

I've been overseas and haven't been overly pressed to get this resolved, but now I'm back in the US and would like to get this ban lifted.

Has anyone experienced something similar and can offer advice on how to best deal with this? Are there any Aria employees on here who can direct me to the best person to contact in order to resolve this?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Cool story, bro.

Never, under any circumstance, leave the casino floor with security.

"Am I under arrest?"

"No."

"I was just looking for the nearest exit."

Go back later and cash your chips in.

would this actually work? they could just detain you, right?

i feel bad for you but at the same time i take comfort in their tough stance against something that they consider cheating.

They need suspicion that a crime has occurred to detain you. Which I believe switching cards qualifies.

I actually didn't think that I did anything that could get me in trouble. I wasn't even sure what they wanted to talk to me about as I assumed that the switching of cards was settled when the floor left and I was able to play for quite a while before I was asked to get up.


Their cameras should clearly show the cards being switched while face down, so no advantage was gained by either one of us. Neither dealer spoke up and I was under the assumption that they are responsible to enforce whatever the rules are. I didn't even think I was breaking any rules.

yeah... well while the dealers might not be speaking up the security always is watching to ensure they dont get nailed by the gaming commission for running a crooked game or suspicion of such, esp after a player complains.

rule of thumb is, it's not a home game, and dont treat it as such.

You're probably going to have to wait a year and then write a letter apologizing to them. Don't expect anything better than that unless you have a great reason to expect special treatment. Strongly disagreeing with the decision to ban you is not a reason to expect special treatment unfortunately.

Edit: Well if it was in November then you only need to wait a little over a month to write the letter.

You should look up the casino number online and ask to talk to security first though. That's what I'd do.

Play somewhere else. You made a series of bad decisions and got a harsh but proportionate response.

You will get that answer when you ask them if you are under arrest. If they say no, you leave. If they say yes, you go with them.

Edit: I should have used the word "voluntarily" after never in the first post. If you are being detained, of course go with them. The more fight you put up, the worse you make it for yourself.

There are times when a specific event is punished less in relation to what occurred right there and then, and more due to upholding a general rule. Not the best analogy, but if you go 90 miles an hour down a completely empty road it's still as appropriate to give you a ticket as it would be if it was rush hour.

That having been said, if the story unfolded like you said, it seems like you should be able to find a way to get this lessened from a lifetime ban, ala pleading to a lower sentence, especially if the tapes show that everyone at the table was fully aware of what was happening. After all - this isn't a ban due to stealing from the casino. If this had occurred at regular table game then I think you'd be toast; but this is poker, which I'd argue is a least somewhat of a different animal.

What you need is someone who can liaise you to the right people at MGM/Aria, and then you can go ahead and calmly and articulately make your case for a lesser punishment.

A poker room allowing anything that would facilitate the perception of anything but a completely above the board game is akin to death for that room. It's not your intention that matters. I think Aria did the right thing here and I would be surprised if they overturned the ban.

I can't, under any circumstances, think of why you thought this was a good idea.

Keep repeating that viewpoint and you will never get reinstated.


Try snail mail. Don't ask directly to be reinstated. Ask what you have to do, who to contact, to be reinstated. Be contrite.

I feel sort of bad for the dealer that was certainly fired for your cutesy actions. On the other hand, lol at that dealer for allowing it.

Horrible to hear sorry man, clearly you were just creating action and a friendly environment with no bad intentions, which most of these life nits are incapable of venturing out of their own little shallow world to understand

Hope things work out

Lesson learned for sure!

Thanks, I'll give that a shot!

It happened just the way I described. Dude from the East Coast whose name starts with P and is a Vegas local could attest to the fact that everyone at the table was fully aware as it was done completely out in the open. Matter of fact, the other folks at the table got a huge kick out of it and were glad that the middle eastern dude was staying around.

Really, can't think of one reason? How about making the game fun for someone who obviously doesn't care much about money and is going to continue rebuying and dropping money as long as he is in fact having fun. Guy was going to get up and call it quits for the night due to his "bad luck" until I offered to share some of my "good luck" by switching cards dark.

I wanna say I either read about DGAF or Limon doing similar things at their respective casinos to keep contributors around. Things like switching cards dark, the whole table putting in say 100 bucks in the middle without looking at their cards and then running out the board before finally looking down at ones hand are all things that I've been a part of in various venues in Europe when you have one or two players who will appreciate this sort of thing and hang around and drop buy-in after buy-in.

Yea, I agree! I kept repeating that the day of the incident as I was just baffled by the severity of the ban over something that was done without a malicious intent and where no advantage was gained by me or any other player at the table having been disadvantaged.

I now certainly agree that I should have just continued playing the hands as dealt by the dealer.

Thanks for your post!

Thanks, man! Funny you chime in, because I'm pretty sure I saw you that night talking to someone who was at the table with me. Your buddy was a guy in his late thirties maybe (if I'm wrong about this and dude is 24 don't repeat this! lol) and was sitting in the 1 or 2 seat. He was actually one of the guys who spoke up when the floor came over and said that we weren't doing anything shady and that the whole table knew exactly what was happening.

That's exactly what I was doing, just creating action and keeping the environment friendly and in a gambling mood!

Thx and all the best!

This.

I am all for having as much of a fun game as possible and keeping spewers around for as long as possible. But what's next? Just because the whole table agrees to it doesnt mean anything. They could all agree that 4s and 8s are wild - that doesnt mean you would play like that.

And I dont know why people would consider this any different from blackjack - there is zero chance they would allow two people to swap two cards blind no matter who agreed to what. Why is poker any different?

Honestly I thought every Aria dealer I had on my last trip was awesome, I really cant believe they allowed this or thought it was a good idea. I've been in situations like that before where the "whole table" has tried to get the dealer to agree to something - like upping the blinds in the middle of the game - and you dont want to be that guy that sticks out like a sore thumb so maybe you just nod along. IMO this is where Aria has to step in to protect the game.

If I was at the table and you were trading cards with somebody else, I'd call the floor too.

This is sketchy af.

Sketchy AF? Come on, man!

Just in case the whole "switching cards dark" is unclear. The cards were facedown and untouched on the table after having been dealt out by the dealer. I allowed him to pick two of my cards without looking at them and sliding me two of his without looking at them! The cards are unknown and the whole table is clearly able to see what's happening!

This isn't an attempt to argue for allowing this, but simply to illustrate what happened.

I don't intend to do this again as it is clearly frowned up on.

Dude was convinced I was in the lucky seat or whatever, so I just tried to keep him around as he was dropping $500 every 20-30 minutes.

Some of the properties on the Strip are extremely cautious and when they ban people, it's always a lifetime ban.

Assuming your story is true, I have no idea if you would get your ban lifted soon assuming you try. You should give it a try but I wouldn't be optimistic about my chances if I were you. Just look at this thread and you'll see completely different reactions from different people. The only good thing about the situation is you have nothing to lose if you try. And I think you shouldn't be condescending and play the victim if you have to write them a letter because that could just annoy whoever reads it.

this. how would you ever think switching out cards...in a casino environment could be ok?

Stop trying to justify your **** up. Just because you and the fish were okay with it doesn't mean the rest of the table was - even if no one spoke up at the time. Plus, this is the ****tiest attitude you can have if you're trying to appeal the ban. Suck it up, offer NO excuse for your actions, and apologize for it. Anything else makes you sound like an arrogant prick that has zero remorse.