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08-18-2012 , 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolProf
One other hand from last night.

BtN straddles for $5. SB calls. BB calls. MP shoves for $61

I have 10 10 in the CO. $180 in my stack.

I ended up flatting. Everyone else folded. A 10 flopped and villain mucked without showing.

We were 7 handed. Anyone reraising here PF?
Fold > Raise > Call
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08-18-2012 , 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach McGuirk
Did you have a plan for if someone raised behind you?
No. Honestly the villain had showing some pretty bad hands at showdown. I put him on such a wide range here. AT+, KQ-KT, 22+

Stove gives me 58% equity against that range. Dropping some of the smaller hands pushes me to around 50%. Meh

Villain seemed like he was on tilt.

Still a questionable call right?
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08-18-2012 , 11:24 AM
Oops typo. Villain shoved for $51 not $61.
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08-18-2012 , 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thousand Tigers
Fold > Raise > Call
I hear ya but I think that it's more like:

fold = fold = fold.

I can only see your reasoning if there are some implicit odds that Hero is going after or an *extremely* good read that Villain is going in with any pocket pair and wants to prevent anyone else from coming in with a raise. Still anyone who happened to have AA or KK (and some people as weak as QQ) is coming in despite the raise and would certain put hero all-in. IMHO, that's why the correct play is fold and wait for a better spot.

The play would be different if V raised to $15 (instead of $61) and it's folded around. Hero calls for $15. SB/BB also call. Hero flops 10. Now, we're talking a great play, great pot. Unfortunately Villain raised $61 so correct play is fold.
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08-18-2012 , 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p0k3rhack3r
If you think this is good play you're going broke pretty quick my friend. You only have a 4% advantage over cards as weak as JQo pre-flop. Any pair above yours and you have less than 17% advantage. And you risked 1/3 of your stack for a way less than 33% edge when flopping a set is about 7:1 against. Let me add that you have no implicit odds since MP is all in. No one else would call (live 1/2) for $61 unless they had AA or KK and they would try to raise you out so this is effectively an all in $180 play if there is a raise behind for a hand as weak as a pair of Ts.

You got lucky.
Well I didn't say it was good play. I wanted feedback so that's why I posted the hand. What range would you give villain who seemed a little tilts and had showed down some marginal hands ?
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08-18-2012 , 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p0k3rhack3r
If you think this is good play you're going broke pretty quick my friend. You only have a 4% advantage over cards as weak as JQo pre-flop. Any pair above yours and you have less than 17% advantage. And you risked 1/3 of your stack for a way less than 33% edge when flopping a set is about 7:1 against. Let me add that you have no implicit odds since MP is all in. No one else would call (live 1/2) for $61 unless they had AA or KK and they would try to raise you out so this is effectively an all in $180 play if there is a raise behind for a hand as weak as a pair of Ts.

You got lucky.

They weren't playing 1/2 that hand as there was a $5 straddle. MP shoved for only 12x the straddle after two limpers. 77-99 should be in his range, those hands are at least more likely than QJo. Also, against an overpair he is at least 18%, not less than 17%, imo.


Reraise all in > Call > Fold
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08-18-2012 , 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolProf
No. Honestly the villain had showing some pretty bad hands at showdown. I put him on such a wide range here. AT+, KQ-KT, 22+

Stove gives me 58% equity against that range. Dropping some of the smaller hands pushes me to around 50%. Meh

Villain seemed like he was on tilt.

Still a questionable call right?
Yes. What are you going to do if someone behind you shoves for $200? Calling is the worst option. If this really is his range then you could maybe raise to isolate. Folding is best IMO, I think you can wait to find a better spot.
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08-18-2012 , 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolProf
Oops typo. Villain shoved for $51 not $61.
The issue here is not $10. It's that you have no implicit odds to make more money after the call and you don't have any fold equity either.

You are not in a tournament. You're playing cash. IMHO: stay away from borderline calls. It's a recipe for too much variance and going broke quickly.
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08-18-2012 , 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_C_Slater
They weren't playing 1/2 that hand as there was a $5 straddle. MP shoved for only 12x the straddle after two limpers. 77-99 should be in his range, those hands are at least more likely than QJo. Also, against an overpair he is at least 18%, not less than 17%, imo.


Reraise all in > Call > Fold

First off, 1/2 live does offer straddling.

Second, any overpair to his TT he is a ~17% dog. Against any pair under TT he is ~83% ahead. That's what my original post (tries to) state. QJo is~ 43% chance to win over TT. That's only being ahead by ~7%.

Third, if he re-raises all in AA or KK will certainly call. So then he's definitely a dog. Don't forget in the CO PF he still has three Villains behind him that need to make a decision. Not out of the woods yet.

IMHO, best play is to fold and wait for a better spot. If this were a tourney that'd be different.

Last edited by p0k3rhack3r; 08-18-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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08-18-2012 , 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolProf
Well I didn't say it was good play. I wanted feedback so that's why I posted the hand. What range would you give villain who seemed a little tilts and had showed down some marginal hands ?
I would need to sit at the table to see villain's play. maybe he had a few reads on other players that you thought were marginal but weren't in the context of the hands he was playing given the other players. Anyway a shove for $51 in MP is very strong and you're just better off waiting for a better spot to call/raise that kind of play.

With a $5 straddle and one caller it means he's willing to risk all of his chips for $13. $51 for $13 is not a good deal unless he really doesn't fear anyone else coming in.
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08-18-2012 , 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p0k3rhack3r
First off, 1/2 live does offer straddling.

Second, any overpair to his TT he is a ~17% dog. Against any pair under TT he is ~83% ahead. That's what my original post (tries to) state. QJo is~ 43% chance to win over TT. That's only being ahead by ~7%.

Third, if he re-raises all in AA or KK will certainly call. So then he's definitely a dog. Don't forget in the CO PF he still has three Villains behind him that need to make a decision. Not out of the woods yet.

IMHO, best play is to fold and wait for a better spot. If this were a tourney that'd be different.
Actually because the BTN straddled the SB and BB had already acted. They just called the straddle for $5 so it's hard to put them on JJ+ or even AK. I was thinking I was ahead of their straddle calling range. Just had to fade the button who was last to act.
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08-18-2012 , 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolProf
Actually because the BTN straddled the SB and BB had already acted. They just called the straddle for $5 so it's hard to put them on JJ+ or even AK. I was thinking I was ahead of their straddle calling range. Just had to fade the button who was last to act.
In AC only the UTG position can straddle, not the button. (Or if button can straddle then I have yet to see it happen in AC live.)

To modify the previous post it's still $51 for $15. And then you're paying $51 for $66. Not a great deal.

Last edited by p0k3rhack3r; 08-18-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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08-18-2012 , 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p0k3rhack3r
If you think this is good play you're going broke pretty quick my friend. You only have a 4% advantage over cards as weak as JQo pre-flop. Any pair above yours and you have less than 17% advantage. And you risked 1/3 of your stack for a way less than 33% edge when flopping a set is about 7:1 against. Let me add that you have no implicit odds since MP is all in. No one else would call (live 1/2) for $61 unless they had AA or KK and they would try to raise you out so this is effectively an all in $180 play if there is a raise behind for a hand as weak as a pair of Ts.

You got lucky.
Do not listen to this guy.
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08-18-2012 , 01:30 PM
Implicit odds ITT.


OP, I asked if you had a plan if somebody behind you raised, and you said you "no".

You're going pro, so you should always have a plan. In any given situation, you should know what you want to do if you are called or raised. That way, you are never surprised. It can be hard to think straight when you get check-raised in a big pot.

You're a smart guy, don't forget to utilize your brain fully. If you have a good plan for all streets, you'll out-think the donkeys, and the good players might stay out of your way a bit.

Good luck!
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08-18-2012 , 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach McGuirk
Implicit odds ITT.


OP, I asked if you had a plan if somebody behind you raised, and you said you "no".

You're going pro, so you should always have a plan. In any given situation, you should know what you want to do if you are called or raised. That way, you are never surprised. It can be hard to think straight when you get check-raised in a big pot.

You're a smart guy, don't forget to utilize your brain fully. If you have a good plan for all streets, you'll out-think the donkeys, and the good players might stay out of your way a bit.

Good luck!
Thanks for the advice.

I suppose had I been raised I would have folded.

This table was pretty passive so to see a reraise in this spot would have been rare. I would have hated folding 7 handed with TT in that spot but I would have had to do it.
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08-19-2012 , 03:43 AM
freaking nits in this thread prof ... you look to your left and see how everyone is reacting.

i'm risking $51 (10BBs effective with the straddle) with 10s. you are WAY ahead of the range of a $1/$2 donkey who has let his stack dribble to $51. he's in the 'double up or go home' mentality.'

the problem with just calling is the people who limped $5 may decide to see a flop ... so i'm raising here. if i run into a bigger hand so be it.

this is why we have an adequate bankroll ... if i'm playing on my last $200 it's a different story.
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08-20-2012 , 01:32 PM
Update.

Played 8 hours last night. Ran down $260. Played too passively for first two hours which got me shortstacked. Added on $100 and again got shortstacked.

Had a chance to book a win on the last hand of the night. Posted that hand over in the llsnl forum. Not sure if I made the right move or not.

It was good to play a nice long session and work on my endurance a bit. The game was good I just missed some opportunities.

I'm going to try and post graphs and ongoing stats as I make this move to Vegas. No games here tonight. One of the things that sucks about playing at a local card house is there are limited opportunities. There was only one table playing last night so it wasn't like I could go to a diff table. That will not be the case in Vegas.

Anyway for all you stat freaks....

Hours: 138
Profit/loss : +3045
BR: $4745
Hourly rate: $22.04

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08-20-2012 , 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolProf
Hours: 138
Profit/loss : +3045
BR: $4745
Hourly rate: $22.04
Not to be a skeptic here but in your OP your bankroll was $4000. So you're really only up $745. Let's not inflate the numbers from the start of this thread....:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PolProf
RESOURCES

BR: $4000. Not ideal but it is what it is
LE (Living Expenses) 3-4 months, 2 months on credit if needed
Old Guy to Vegas Quote
08-20-2012 , 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p0k3rhack3r
Not to be a skeptic here but in your OP your bankroll was $4000. So you're really only up $745. Let's not inflate the numbers from the start of this thread....:
Noted. I have withdrawn $2300 from those winnings over the last two year thus reducing my BR to $4745. Sorry for the confusion.
Old Guy to Vegas Quote
08-20-2012 , 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolProf
Noted. I have withdrawn $2300 from those winnings over the last two year thus reducing my BR to $4745. Sorry for the confusion.
So can we say that right now you are starting with:

BR: $4745

And we can track you using this number?
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08-20-2012 , 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p0k3rhack3r
So can we say that right now you are starting with:

BR: $4745

And we can track you using this number?
Yes that's correct.
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08-20-2012 , 11:09 PM
Thx for adding stats. Its great to see when you have a profitable night.
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08-23-2012 , 01:34 PM
I've been watching the Crush live Poker videos lately. Very interesting.

I has a few take aways from the videos so far

First I need to do a better job of assigning ranges to villains. What I mean is that I have been giving them too narrow of a range in many situations that gives me the perception they are either weaker than they really are or stronger than they appear to be. Bart does a really good job in deconstructing ranges given player types, action, stack sizes, etc. Great info in this area.

Second point is to work more with poker stove and like tools. This point correlates with point one. By using this tool more often I can see if my decisions were profitable given the action. A hand from this past weekend put me as a 56-44 favorite when the money went all in. However after stoving villains range I found I was at 50-50 if not slightly behind. Overall it was still a profitable shove but it wasn't the slam dunk I first thought it to be.

Anyway I recommend the videos for anyone. Yes I know the games are typically 5/5 which is bigger than 1/2 but the concepts are very similar.
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08-23-2012 , 06:18 PM
The last session I played this new player came to the game. He was a friend of someone's friend, etc.

Kid looked to be maybe 25. He said he was a dealer from Colorado. Asked about every question possible before starting to play. Spent ten minutes talking about how great of a game stud is to play. Bought in for a whopping $60. Lol

Anyway the guy was on my right so I had to hear every stupid comment he made. He told his GF that he was going to look at a mattress. Now understand this was at 11pm on a Sunday night. In an office building that was deserted. His GF waited in the car but finally sleuthed it out that he wasn't mattress shopping and she came inside with a disgusted look on her face.

Somehow we got on the topic of real estate in Vegas. He claimed the real estate on the strip wasn't worth $600 million dollars. I told him it was worth far more than that. He says "I lived in Las Vegas for 16 years." he said this with that smug look on his face that says "yes I just committed a logical fallacy but look how smart I am." I simply replied, "when they give out commercial real estate licenses for merely living somewhere I'm sure your point will be well taken." He didn't seem amused.

Anyway....

He got involved in a decent size pot with the guy to my left. The pot got pretty inflated preflop and on the flop.

The guy to my left bet enough to push the real estate expert all in. He then proceeded to turn over his hand and say," see you are beat."

The board was A K 9 6.
Villain to my left turned over K 9

The pot was offering the real estate expert a little under 2-1

The expert thinks forever. Finally the expert turns over AJ and talks about how hard his decision was. Lol

So basically he had 8 outs or about 16%. Not a profitable call. At this point some of the more knowledgeable players at the table were laughing. This was just a math problem at this point and it was correct to fold. Still the expert sat there for at least 2-3 mins pondering.

Finally he folded. Of course the guy to my left asked to see the river and the dealer turned over an A. LOL

The expert left for almost ten minutes shouting "I knew I should have called. I knew it!"

I love poker.
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08-23-2012 , 07:42 PM
Welcome to the tables
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