Tips and rake in live poker cannot be underestimated. The "rakeback" you get live is almost nil compared to the 25-40% most people get online. A good room is considered $2hr. Win 2 pots an hour, tip the dealer $1 each pot and your comp has now gone to the dealer. Add tips to the waitresses, more money you are losing.

Rake is even worse especially if your paying for any bonus jackpots such as bad beat or high hands. Over the summer all Harrah's rooms were raking 10% up to $5 + $1BBJ. With your tip, that 2 pot an hour example is now $14hr your losing. Harrah's also only comped $1hr I believe, so your still losing $13hr. That is hard to overcome at 1/3.

I have an app that I use to track my live sessions. For the first year I used it, I never included rake and tips even though it allows it. I decided over the summer to include them and I was sickened by what I saw. Without either, my hourly would more than doubled from $9hr to $20hr. Granted, I'm a 10 hour a week rec player, but still.

You shouldn't be sickened, without the rake you would not have games to play in, and you would be making $0/hr instead of $9/hr.

Obviously there is a balance, and the lower the rake the better but the casino's do not make much off of poker and they are providing you with the rooms, players (including fish you would otherwise never meet), tables, dealers, security, etc....

I'm starting a Shaffer fan club. Too true.

The 1/2NLH and 1/2 PLO games in the Louisville, Ky/ Cincinnati, Oh area are perfect for playing for a living. Deep buy-ins, unlimited straddle from anywhere (in Louisville) provide a highly profitable game if you can afford to play a high variance style.

Money is NEVER the scoreboard. If you think it is, you are misunderstanding what I am trying to communicate.

There is only one success... to be able to spend your life in your own way.." ~ Christopher Morley (1890 - 1957)

What money gives you is FREEDOM and OPTIONS..... the more freedom you have, the less you are FORCED to do certain things, the happier you are.

If you have 500k in your bank account vs 5K, your freedom in choosing what car you would like to drive expands.

If you have 50 million in your bank account vs 50k, your freedom on whether you have to go to work expands.

When you are forced to sit and play poker b/c you have to pay rent, you are not free.

When you are forced to forgo choices in the house you live in b/c of your poker income, you are not free. And don't give me that bs about you were never interested in the Ferrari and that you only want a Camry. When you have the $ to buy a Ferrari and you still buy a Camry, I will believe you.

Let's put it this way, ask any of the top poker pros if they would rather switch places with Guy Liberte, 99% of them would say yes in a heart beat.

Cheers,

S

I didn't read every reply in this thread, but from what I've seen, Starberry is killing it. Listen to him.

I've long since lost count how many people I've seen move here and busto. I've long since lost count how many locals I've watched go from 10/20nl to 5/10 to 2/5 as the economy worsened and the games got tougher.

If you're good enough to make it, you know it. You already have a roll and aren't asking about it. Seriously, if you're wondering whether you can grind 1/2 for a living or if you need a 2k roll or 5k roll or 10k roll, just stop. 90%+ chance you will just busto.

I've been grinding 5/10 - 10/20 for 5 years. I've done well. I love the lifestyle freedom poker gives me.

At the same time, it's really depressing knowing that I'm basically unhirable (despite a good college degree) because I'm almost 28 and I have zero work experience. And it's doubly depressing knowing that if I did decide to start a career I'd lost my freedom, working way more hours for a fraction of what I currently make, and it would take years and years to achieve my current earn. In other words, I've basically reached the point where I'm stuck with poker forever. My only out is to gamble with my money in another way (ie start a business or get into real estate/investing).

This +1000. This should be stickied somewhere, for all us recreational players. An Internet forum will not (and should not) provide guidance when considering such a major life decision as going pro.

This is a 2-3 year plan in the making, and is currently at the beginning stages, so I don't see why it's a bad sign that someone is asking these questions when the information cannot simply fly into his/her head. I'm not rolled whatsoever. You gotta start somewhere, and 2p2 seems to be a good way to get other people's opinions and whatnot. While the truth can be harsh and honest opinions are what I encourage and not just blind optimism, I feel that ripping out a shoot before its' flower blossoms is the other extreme and is unnecessary

but that's life isn't it? In reality, a fresh green shoot could harbor the most beautiful and rare orchid in the history of the universe until a sewer rat comes along and eats it because it looks tasty.

If "ripping out a shoot" means what I think it means, I'll just say that no one is doing that, and that it is definitely not my intention. No one is telling you "give up you'll never make it".

What people are telling you is:
- you are asking questions that are revealing when it comes down to assessing where you are at with poker. And it appears you are quite far away from correctly assessing whether you can make a living out of the game or not.
- Hence the interesting response from Pokerfink: if you could make it you would already know it. You would probably have thousands of hours of poker under your belt (live, probably a minimum to be able to judge your results), and a substantial bankroll to make the move. You would not need 2+2 to give you a push in the direction you wanted to go. Or, you would have used 2+2 but asked very different questions backed by much more information. I would not tell you to research bankroll management ,variance and risk of ruin.
- oh, and the few pros that replied here all told you: Poker as a living is f'ing hard.

Again, me saying that the idea that "you would know it if you could" is interesting and should be stickied somewhere to be read by all aspiring pros is not the same as telling you to "forget it" (even if I think your first priority should be getting a masters, while playing on the side. Once you have your masters, maybe re-assess after say 2000 hours at the tables -minimum?-, having logged all your sessions, having had long discussions with actual pros, having spent several weeks in vegas etc).

My 2cents, not worth much 'cause I'm far from being a pro... which brings me to another issue with Internet Forums: you get numerous answers, and it's tough to weed out the excellent or good advice from the horrible (and there are all types in this thread).

Touche Marc14, I guess that was more towards pokerfink's comment about if you have to ask what kind of roll one would need then you're 90%+ to bust out. It may be too early in the game to be asking these sorts of questions but I have gained great info from the legitimate feedback so theres that. As for graduate school, I would go straight into it if I had aspirations to go into psychology as a professional. So with that being said, I must defer until further notice

Glad to hear you you got good info out of this thread. Funny thing is there is a similar thread in NVG, in which a dude posts this:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...8&postcount=33
Good stuff.

Rather grind 1/2 NL than be a slave for the man 40 hours a week.

I have 25k saved up for next summer should be enough for Vegas

He also cross-posted in B&M, which I replied to.

I think if you have the skill to be a winner in 10/20 NL, then you are going to get more out of playing poker for a living. But 99% people are going to be happier in an average job over grinding $1/2 for a living. Long term.

This is an exceptional post. It's incredibly important to manage your money properly and re-invest as much as your profits as humanly possible into your bankroll instead of spending them.

Reminds me of a twitter post I saw early this year. My friend had a nice day grinding 2/5 and basically said, "ship the big win, going to go buy the awesome new bed I've been wanting." My immediate reaction was that she would be busto soon. It's just the textbook wrong mindset to have as a poker pro trying to make it on a limited bankroll. She's now waiting tables.

The worse you are with money, the more careful you need to be. Keep your money in a bank account where you don't have immediate access to it. Set aside emergency funds. Pay your rent in advance. Get roommates to lower expenses. Whatever. The key is to be honest with yourself about your own money management ability, and set up whatever safeguards you need for success (or, more accurately, to not fail).

I think you're in a good spot compared to most people in similar situations. I've played with you and you probably make a lot of money at poker. If you haven't you should read some of limon's posts and podcasts on the poker lifestyle. He's done what you do and became successful by diversifying his funds (getting passive income through investments). After listening to him I think unless you are in the top .01% of awesome/lucky poker players in the world investing part of your bankroll is mandatory to become successful.

What is your degree if you don't mind sharing? I think most math/science degrees are useful despite having no job experience.

Penn State, marketing with English minor. Good GPA too. Insert Sandusky joke here.

Investing is something I'm starting to get into. For some reason, I'm extremely risk averse when it comes to investing my poker bankroll. I have no problem gambling with it at the table, but if I were to buy stocks and they went down I'd freak out. I've always kept my bankroll in basic interest bearing accounts, which over the past few years don't bear much interest. I'll definitely look for what limon says, I've always considered him a smart poster. I'd appreciate any links you might have to what he says.

PcolaDogTracker,

I went through and read all your posts ITT. You come across as someone who has the right mindset to succeed in poker, if for no other reason than you seem open to getting advice and guidance (an important and surprisingly uncommon trait).

But I have no idea whether you have the actual poker skill to succeed. I'm not sure if you know that either. This is very important to figure out before embarking on playing professionally. Do you track all of your play? What do your numbers look like? Over what sample?

Also, what kind of back-up plan do you have? I had a college degree and supportive parents to fall back on if I failed. I could always move back home and try to find a job, and they would have supported me in that process. Do you have a similar safety net?

Here are some answers to some of your more specific questions:

It can be very profitable if you are good enough. There are lots of pros, but enough tourists and bad locals to support them. Other cities generally have fewer pros and softer games.

I would strongly advise against moving here with less than 20k. Even at 20k, your risk of ruin will be high. At 10k your risk of ruin will be VERY high. 5k is a joke.

I've never been to Biloxi, but from what I've heard the games are significantly softer there. There is more action and bigger action in Vegas, but if you're starting out at 1/2, Biloxi is probably just fine.

You want a wife and kids? 50k won't cut it. You want to live a comfortable life and grow your bankroll to play higher? 50k won't cut it. Especially 20 years from now when cost of living is much higher, but you're still grinding 1/2 and 2/5 for your 50k.

If you love poker and can succeed at it, then yes, it's worth doing.

Your input is much appreciated PokerFink. I don't have any statistics to show how well I've done playing. I haven't kept records because I've been having to spend profits on rent/groceries/books/etc at auburn. No online experience either, which is irrelevant from the state of those games. I've played consistently well at the card room in florida, and gained expressed respect from the dealers and talented regulars there. Other than that, there's really no way to show anyone where I'm at in the game. I also have supportive parents that will back me up if things go awry, so that's good

Thank you, I really appreciate the compliment.

I have worked at in the bond markets since 2007, I think we have a trade here.

Poker advice for investment advice? Just came back from LV but will be there again after Thanksgiving. Will send you a PM then.

Cheers,

S

Money management is a absolutely essensial if you want to succeed. You must have a minimum of six months of living expenses covered PLUS a conservative bankroll of no less than 40 full buy-ins. I suggest to play $1/$2 part-time and build your bankroll for $2/$5, while you work at a regular job part time to pay for all of your bills/living expenses.

Is the rake at 1/2 even beatable?

https://www.deucescracked.com/podcasts/deuceplays

Basically invest your winnings in parking lots, taco bell franchise, dividend paying stocks, whatever. When poker is going well you have a bunch of free money. When poker isn't going well, you have a fallback. It just isn't sustainable to live hand to mouth in poker. You don't want to be grinding at 50. At a certain point you will run worse than you ever thought possible another income stream is really helpful.

It's mainly random posts from his #2000 post in the high stakes forum. He also did 4 podcasts with bart hanson that are pretty decent.

https://www.deucescracked.com/podcasts/deuceplays

Edit: Someone beat me to it!