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Old 09-20-2017, 06:39 PM   #26
madlex
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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The only property in the entire company that did worse was Gold Strike in Tunica.
Which says a lot about the state of Tunica. Kinda sad, I really like to stay at Gold Strike, but it seems like it's getting worse every year.

As far as CC goes, I guess they continue to milk it for a little longer while it keeps making money and eventually tear it down instead of remodeling it.
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:00 PM   #27
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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It's dead last in the MGM Las Vegas market. Circus Circus EBITDA in 2016 was $61,989,000. The only other Las Vegas property that didn't break $100m in 2016 was Monte Carlo but it still beat CC by $17m. The only property in the entire company that did worse was Gold Strike in Tunica.

To compare, here were the top three MGM properties in terms of 2016 EBITDA:

Bellagio: $479m
MGM Grand: $330m
Mandalay Bay: $235m

The depreciation write-off on these properties was around $20m each in 2016. Circus Circus was $4.8m. All of the other MGMs in Las Vegas were in the $4-$10m range. Excalibur was the only one with a lower D/A than Circus Circus and it nearly doubled CC in EBITDA.
There you go! Check your sofa cushions. You might be able to pick it up for well short of a billion. MGM sure wouldn't mind the cash. Ten years from now you would probably be a very happy fellow. I think CC still has all the real estate all the way to Industrial (or whatever it's called now) because they used to have an RV campground in back.

Maybe you can get them to throw in Slots a Fun. That would give you pretty good Strip frontage.
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:03 AM   #28
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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It's dead last in the MGM Las Vegas market. Circus Circus EBITDA in 2016 was $61,989,000. The only other Las Vegas property that didn't break $100m in 2016 was Monte Carlo but it still beat CC by $17m. The only property in the entire company that did worse was Gold Strike in Tunica.

To compare, here were the top three MGM properties in terms of 2016 EBITDA:

Bellagio: $479m
MGM Grand: $330m
Mandalay Bay: $235m

The depreciation write-off on these properties was around $20m each in 2016. Circus Circus was $4.8m. All of the other MGMs in Las Vegas were in the $4-$10m range. Excalibur was the only one with a lower D/A than Circus Circus and it nearly doubled CC in EBITDA.


Must of been some type of off hand rumor/hearsay. I assume MGM is making net income. If not I wonder if there's any chance the CC property is than one of a few with net income or the highest net income %.
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:41 AM   #29
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

"Maybe you can get them to throw in Slots a Fun. That would give you pretty good Strip frontage.".......................

CC does own and control this property, doesn't it?
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:03 AM   #30
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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CC does own and control this property, doesn't it?
CC bought Slots a Fun from the mob in the late 70s. Now they are both owned by MGM. I think Slots a Fun was supposed to be merged into the CC "experience" a couple of years ago, but I am not sure if that ever happened?

I don't think I ever stepped foot in there but pass it frequently when running on the Strip. Place looks very sad from the outside.

Maybe Resorts World buys CC just to get that ugly thing out of the view of its hotel guests?
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:58 AM   #31
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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As far as CC goes, I guess they continue to milk it for a little longer while it keeps making money and eventually tear it down instead of remodeling it.
Or hope that someone does something amazing with surrounding properties so they can be cost justified in making an expensive remodel.
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Old 09-21-2017, 04:19 PM   #32
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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CC bought Slots a Fun from the mob in the late 70s. Now they are both owned by MGM. I think Slots a Fun was supposed to be merged into the CC "experience" a couple of years ago, but I am not sure if that ever happened?

I don't think I ever stepped foot in there but pass it frequently when running on the Strip. Place looks very sad from the outside.

Maybe Resorts World buys CC just to get that ugly thing out of the view of its hotel guests?
I walked into Slots A Fun once. There was a Subway and a hot dog stand right by the front door, so the place smelled like Subway and hot dog in addition to the usual dank casino decades of baked-in smoke + piss smell. I didn't stay.
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Old 09-22-2017, 07:13 PM   #33
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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Must of been some type of off hand rumor/hearsay. I assume MGM is making net income. If not I wonder if there's any chance the CC property is than one of a few with net income or the highest net income %.
I doubt net income could drastically change the EBITDA rankings. The depreciation part is public knowledge as noted above and there's a note on Circus Circus. Taxes aren't going to vary drastically from one property to another on a percentage basis beyond possibly property taxes. That could, perhaps, help it pass Monte Carlo.
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:38 PM   #34
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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Taxes aren't going to vary drastically from one property to another on a percentage basis beyond possibly property taxes.
While I think your conclusion is likely correct, one thing I would check if I wanted to be rigorous is that Las Vegas (where Circus Circus is located) doesn't impose any other taxes that don't apply to properties licated in Paradise.
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:43 AM   #35
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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To compare, here were the top three MGM properties in terms of 2016 EBITDA:

Bellagio: $479m
MGM Grand: $330m
Mandalay Bay: $235m

The depreciation write-off on these properties was around $20m each in 2016. Circus Circus was $4.8m. All of the other MGMs in Las Vegas were in the $4-$10m range. Excalibur was the only one with a lower D/A than Circus Circus and it nearly doubled CC in EBITDA.
I was gonna say how is Aria not in that list ... and then I forgot they lose half of their profits in Aria to Dubai World.

Curious what the ROI / revenue bump (if any) will be on the Monte Carlo remodel into Park MGM. (One could argue Park MGM will cannibalize other MGM props at their assumed higher price point)

Last edited by SenatorKevin; 09-29-2017 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 09-29-2017, 04:17 AM   #36
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

Are they really remodeling that much? Based on the times I stayed there, in order to command a higher price point they need to completely rebuild the place, a la IP -> Linq. The same with the rooms, which are fairly plain even when the place was new.
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Old 09-29-2017, 04:53 AM   #37
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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While I think your conclusion is likely correct, one thing I would check if I wanted to be rigorous is that Las Vegas (where Circus Circus is located) doesn't impose any other taxes that don't apply to properties licated in Paradise.
Circus Circus is not in the city limits. The line doesn't cross Industrial south of Sahara. The railroad tracks are the border in that area.
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:41 PM   #38
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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Are they really remodeling that much? Based on the times I stayed there, in order to command a higher price point they need to completely rebuild the place, a la IP -> Linq. The same with the rooms, which are fairly plain even when the place was new.
I think they are spending half a billion on the remodel and with T-Mobile arena and City Center next door, they might also add a higher location surcharge than they did in the past.
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:14 PM   #39
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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Originally Posted by pig4bill View Post
Are they really remodeling that much? Based on the times I stayed there, in order to command a higher price point they need to completely rebuild the place, a la IP -> Linq. The same with the rooms, which are fairly plain even when the place was new.
As far as I've read, it's a total overhaul of the casino floor, every room, entire pool area and the addition of a new mall along the Park area.

Some of the new rooms are coming online already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-piErtCxb0

I mean, it's no Wynncore but certainly an improvement I guess.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:33 AM   #40
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

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As far as I've read, it's a total overhaul of the casino floor, every room, entire pool area and the addition of a new mall along the Park area.

Some of the new rooms are coming online already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-piErtCxb0

I mean, it's no Wynncore but certainly an improvement I guess.
If that was an improvement, then I can tell I never missed much...that clip certainly does not entice me to stay there...
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Old 10-04-2017, 12:55 PM   #41
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

Quite a bit nicer than they used to be but still not as nice as Mirage or TI. People won't be happy paying $100 a night mid-week.
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Old 10-04-2017, 03:06 PM   #42
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

Those rooms are small to begin with so there's not much to do but freshen up the bathroom and update some basic decor. I haven't stepped foot inside the MC in a long time but this video was recommended when I watched the one above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s04qZ6YfVOM

The casino looks the same and the lobby looks more bland and cramped than ever. I remember the lobby being more wide open and large windows behind the the front desk looking towards the pool. If they're not done yet then I'm guessing that the casino is going end up to looking more like the lobby. Meh.
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Old 10-04-2017, 05:26 PM   #43
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Re: Fontainebleau sold



I took this picture back in late July when staying at the Mandarin. It's a view of the old pool area which apparently is being built over and I'm guessing they are moving the pool to the roof of that construction. Curious what it looks like when completed.
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Old 10-09-2017, 05:47 PM   #44
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Re: Fontainebleau sold

Saw this today which is basically clarification about my post above.

https://www.vegasbright.com/2017/10/...-along-nicely/
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