Bellagio, either 40-80 or 80-160 runs almost every day, lower stakes run at other casinos at various times. The relative skill level compared to no limit games is much lower and you get to play seven handed.

Mixed games are where the rubber meets the road. I'm saying nobody is there to hold your hand or videos to watch (maybe that's not the case now). You either enjoy figuring **** out by yourself and win, or you don't and you just lose your ass.

I think they're fun as hell. it's an awesome feeling playing games that haven't been solved or studied for tens of thousands of hours. It really is about your mind against your opponents and not about who's memorized what from which video imo. There's also a ton more colorful, well rounded people in mixed than say the typical 2/5/10 nit fest.

But there's still some downsides. I want to guess competition is worse from a strat pov, but some of the games are very high variance which tends to balance things out. Like there's going to be plenty of dead money from players who don't even know hand rankings lol... but playing most mixed games against competent players leads to really high variance.

Yea I agree with that doing 100% poker is prob not good for mental health in the long term. Sounds like you've found a good balance with some other things that bring in money, which is essentially what I'm aiming at over the next few years.

Yea I've toyed around with learning mixed games a couple times. I've done the same with PLO more times than I can count. It always just comes down to the fact that it doesn't work with how I use poker. There are limited games so if I want to focus on mix or PLO I end up having to schedule my life around poker instead of the other way around. Sometimes the game isn't running, sometimes its only good super late at night, sometimes if I don't show up when it starts I cant get in the game, etc. I want to be able to show up when it works best for my life overall and be able to play in a reasonably good game. I also am most successful when focusing on one game, something I've realized after a few attempts at the "I'm just going to go in and play whatever game looks best" approach.

Thus, hold'em is always where I land. I'm sure it could be more lucrative to make the effort to schedule my life around either PLO or mix but I'd way rather be able to play the schedule that works best for my life and know with confidence that there will be a reasonably good game going when I go in.

Thanks man, totally agree.

Yea as mentioned the low number of games keeps me away but I do enjoy these games for the reasons you mention and play them on occasion. I think your average fish prefers the simplicity of holdem but there definitely seem to be small pools of both fish and good players in both of these games. I can't speak much for mix, but from what I've seen in PLO the games are vastly better than holdem when there are fish in the mix, but when there aren't I'd rather be playing holdem. Basically fishy PLO > fishly NL but normal PLO < normal NL. I could be totally wrong and that's from the perspective of someone who's better at NL than PLO so perhaps given equal skill in both PLO is still better all the time.

And yea limit games seem to be super high variance so games with all competents seem like a nightmare, though I suppose holdem games of the like aren't much better.

You could still play nlhe while you wait for a seat in the mix game of course. That's what I do during the series. But if you don't feel like you do your best playing multiple game types that obv is relevant.

If i had to choose between 1/3 or 2/5 plo and 20/40 mix I would choose the mix AINEC.

Regarding variance in limit vs no limit or mix/plo versus no limit cash I'll say that my opinion is that variance is more a function of your skill edge rather than a particular game format, and that the better you get you'll decrease the amount of losing sessions, big losing sessions, and confused/gray area/spewy plays that occur, all of which dramatically lower your long term variance.

And yeah, more fun, paying time instead of rake, meeting more interesting people are all true if you can get to that point.

But I totally understand when anyone prefers not to make that leap, because it does take sustained effort and a willingness to invest in losing for a while before it all comes together. The other side is pretty amazing though.

Cush, thanks again for the great thread over the years and hope you keep doing what makes you happy.

Cheers.

There is definitely a difference in the variance btwn diff game formats

I want to echo what etm. said:

Cush, thanks again for the great thread over the years and hope you keep doing what makes you happy.

To an extent you're correct. Understanding the game/ playing better will reduce variance in most games and most lineups. But different game formats definitely have more built in variance than others do. A game like stud8 or plo8 has significantly less variance than PLO and most draw games, no matter how well you play. Wouldn't you agree?

In your player pool how many winners would you consider to have a deep understanding of the games and not just nut peddlers?

Yes I definitely agree PLO and single winner draw games have way more variance than stud 8 or big o. However I think it all kind of evens out the more games there are in the mix, and when you add more games, there's just so few people who are going to be good at all of them.

Very few winners in my pool are more than nut peddlers. They have low ceilings and have no idea how to get better, which is great for those who keep hammering away at making improvements.

Thanks a lot to both of you for this comment. I've been pretty inconsistent with updates lately and because I often use this blog as a brainstorm/think session for myself it probably seems like I change my mind even more often than I actually do, which I'm sure comes of pretty flip-flopish, so I appreciate you guys sticking around and offering your thoughts.

Speaking of which, of course after my last explanation of why I stick to NL I've played almost exclusively PLO. The games have been running during the day I assume with March Madness going on and there seemed to be some good spots. I've had my share of ups and downs as expected but I have definitely gotten better along the way.

One thing I've noticed is that even when the PLO games are "bad", its a better game than the equivalently bad NL games, assuming equal skill in both games. I'm no where near as good at PLO but I think I'm good enough that its about a wash, which leaves a lot more room for improvement and potential earn.

This is of course from the perspective of a relative newbie to PLO and comes from a very small sample size. A lot of these things could turn out not to be true. For example, a lot of the things I see people doing and think are bad might end up not being bad after all. That definitely happened a lot with holdem. I would see regs doing stuff that I thought was dumb but later when I got better I realized was actually good. Interestingly, the reverse happened a lot too.

The other concern I have is how slow the game is live. Hands take forever sometimes, so even if my edge is bigger per hand, per hour it still might not be given that I'll see so fewer hands per hour in the PLO game.

Either way, it seems like a path worth pursuing so I'm going to keep at it and see how things play out. Once I get a bunch more time in the game I'll be able to make a more accurate decision. If nothing else I'll be a lot better at the game in case a great game pops up and it will probably make me a better holdem player.

I think the last sentence of your post is very important. By getting better at PLO you are in a position to swoop in when that great game pops up and also to widen the game-select spectrum.

Cush, I applaud on your success in poker. I have found your thread entertaining and insightful. I wish you weren't so vague on results, but I can understand what you are doing.

I recently found this thread and read it all the way through. It was quite a run. I know you have struggles with motivation to play. I can understand why you took the 9-5 job for a period of time.

Before I start spouting off advice let me tell you that I understand that we are all different in this crazy world.

A little about myself. I went to college for Accounting. Got a job right out of college. Got married a year later. Started building my life with my spouse. We decided to pay off college loans before thinking about kids. I grew up in a card game family. We played plenty. I learned poker at a young age. It was just another card game. I watched on some nights when my Dad had a game at the house. I played some in HS. Not really any in college. I did take my first trip to LV in 1990 at 18 and actually played Hold'em. I would make a few trips to LV in the 90s.

I started traveling in the late 90s for work. My rule was if there was a cardroom within 1.5 hours I would go play. I played a little by my house. I am in the Midwest. It was around '99 or '00 that I was really getting drawn to poker. I was finding stuff on the internet to learn about it and what games were being played. I found RGP. If you are old enough you know what it is/was.

2001 came and we had our first child a daughter. I also started MBA school. Poker was way down on the priority list. My career was going well overall. The poker boom hit. I started hosting a monthly tournament. I was also looking for more places to play. I did take a trip to LV and played in my first casino tournament in 2003. Orleans open $500 Limit. Yes limit. I did fine. Finishing about 7 spots outside the money. I was hooked. I would make more trips to LV in the coming years. I was at the Bellagio when the 2/5 had a max buyin of $200. I read everything I could about poker mainly because I couldn't play much.

My second child came along in '05. My wife had stopped working in '03. That meant less money, but peace of mind in the raising of my children. I played some homegame tournaments. I still do. The main group has been going strong for 13 years. My kids were taking up all my time with their sports and activities. I got to coach each one of them for a couple of seasons. I knew I would never have enough time to play poker regularly. I was at peace with that. I could wait my time.

Quite recently the kids sports and activities have lessened a lot. One kid is driving so that makes life easier. I am back to playing more. I am a much better player than back in '04. My wife went back to work. Money is not as much of a worry. If it wasn't for upcoming college I would really be fine.

Oh I have worked now for almost 24 years in my career. I am good at what I do. I don't like to network or totally play the corporate game so I am not as high up the ladder as I could be. I work for a crazy person. There is a lot about my job I don't like. But my job provides for my family. We live a pretty good life.

I am much more patient in at my age. I know poker will be a much bigger part of my life in 5-10 years. I will eventually play to supplement my retirement income.

Cush I read your whole thread. I understand a lot of what you are saying. One thing I saw that stuck with me. "In some ways my feelings toward it(9-5 job) are similar to poker in that I don't necessarily feel like I'm making any sort of positive contribution towards society." I get that you want to do some good in the world and you were hoping a job would do that for you. Let me tell you if you want to contribute to society start a family and raise children that are good members of society. Family is way more important than any job out there. I love my wife and kids. Sure they drive me crazy at times, but they are my family. Having front row seats to see a child grow up is like no other thing in the world. The best part is you play a huge influence on their life. I would do anything in the world for my kids. I would work like a dog to get them the stuff they need. Having kids will motivate the heck out of you to do better in whatever you do.

Good luck in all your future endeavors.

great post...

How many days/hours are you playing a week Cush? After second thought I agree with ecm. Mixed games have some variance but they are definitely soft.

I don't think a single person studies the games let alone could tell you rough percentages in ANY draw game. It's nuts.

I have no doubt that raising kids and starting a family would be extremely meaningful. Even not having children my family is very important to me and I find a ton of meaning in my life from the people I surround myself with, which extends far beyond those who I am related to by blood.

That being said, at this moment in my life I am not interested in raising children. That might change at some point but I don't think not having children precludes me from having a meaningful family aspect to my life.

Going for 30 hrs/week though its been a bit less recently. I've been playing PLO and while its more interesting/new, its also much more mentally draining so I haven't found myself playing super long sessions.

I'm enjoying my current PLO experiment. If for some reason it goes sideways, mixed games would definitely be the next spot I'd look to experiment as long as my bankroll is in a spot where I can afford to sacrifice short term earn to learn new games.

After some very consistent volume for the first couple months being back I have tapered off a little bit recently and have finally found some motivation to get to work writing again. One of the big things I noticed is that having had the perspective of working a 9-5, I feel fairly chill about my volume being a bit less recently. Before that experience I would go through multiple spells every year in which I lagged behind in hours. Inevitably I would end up in a downward spiral of doubt about whether or not I should keep playing poker. If I didn’t want to play a full schedule week in and week out then what was the point? I would spend lots of time looking and jobs or researching other ways to make money. But now that I’ve had the experience and seen what the grass looks like on the other side, I’m pretty chill about taking a little break. I can look at it as just that, a break. It doesn’t mean I need to question all my life decisions, just that I’m working a bit less and eventually I’ll work more.

Unfortunately I’ve been having some pretty lackluster results since getting back to the tables. It’s one of the worst 3-month stretches I’ve ever had, which is pretty bad timing to have happen right after I quit my job. For most of it I rolled with it and was just happy to not be working 9-5 anymore. After a while longer though it has made me question just how much of a winner I really am. I’ve made some mistakes for sure but very little has seemed to go my way for any sustained stretch of time. I’m doing my best to use the run-bad as an excuse to keep improving as much as I can because the best way to make sure it’s actually a downswing and that I don’t actually just suck at poker is to be as good at poker as possible.

A huge part of that is obviously reviewing hands and studying poker training material, but lately I’ve been more and more aware of how some mental game issues that need work. What it mainly comes down to is that I flat out do not pay close enough attention at the table. When I am diligent about keeping my phone away and paying attention to the game I just make so much better decisions. It’s not even that all the information I’m collecting is all that valuable, it’s that when I’m distracted by a podcast, an article, or social media, I’m extremely apt to making dumb errors that I know are bad but because my brain isn’t in poker mode so I just click the nearest button that seems right and inevitably, sometimes its horribly wrong.

My last few sessions I’ve been trying to get back to basics and play fundamentally sound poker without doing too much stuff outside of that. If I were playing my A-game doing this would be sacrificing EV in spots where going against the book is more profitable. However, when I’m not playing my best I end up taking a bunch of –EV spots that look +EV, which usually eliminates whatever I gained when I actually do find nonstandard +EV spots and adds a bunch of unnecessary variance that does little other than make me wonder if I’m actually still a winner in this stupid game. So getting back to basics is my way of regaining confidence in what I’m doing. I’ve never been a big fan of quitting early to book a win when on a downswing, but this is sort of a form of that. I’m not quitting early, but I am playing in a way that probably sacrifices a little EV but also makes it more likely I’ll win since I’m only taking the best spots I can find, the ones I know for sure are profitable.

Poker is tough. I used to play pro for a few years before opening my business. If you are playing it F/T again you can't have your phone,ipad,book,etc out and be another crappy 2/5 grinder who talks about poker and beats, but doesn't pay enough attention to the game in the moment to properly adapt. You will just be a slightly losing long term player if that is your strategy, and I see people doing that everywhere.
What is your playing style? If you play TAG, then the best setup you can have is to cooler someone or gain thin value on OK hands. If you are playing against good players and they know you are TAG then you will probably have the worst hand when the money goes in.
I implement a lag style, and it is very profitable, but requires a lot of attention to the game. The graphs are more swingy, but you end up being in much better spots when you decide to get your stack in because people will call off light. Although, I only play for fun now instead of an income so my opinion can be skewed.
Good luck, and run better. That is what most of the game is about anyways.

Playing extremely tight, fundamentally sound abc nit/rock whatever you want call it style poker is the most EV, long term for live poker. You're giving up lots of small edges, but with those small edges comes much more variance. Considering how few hands of live poker you can get in lifetime, it's a no brainer that the nit style is the best style.

But poker pros these days are in a bit of a conundrum. You can't be a nit/ pass up on edges and actually make a solid living playing NL. If you play super nitty then you better hope you run like god forever and you play in the best games ever, for every single session you play.

There's also another problem. Playing extremely tight solid poker is boring. It would be like working in an assembly line, doing exactly the same thing over and over again while being forced to pay critical attention every single minute. There would have to be something wrong with you if you could it for 1200+ hours per year every single year.

The fact that you're autopiloting, listening to music/pods/ tv series/ whatever means your perfectly normal. That's a good thing if you had a real job, it's a bad thing if your a nl poker pro. Personally, I think any nit nl pro that enjoys the work/ has no problem with it are some of the most boring human beings on the planet outside of poker.

The solution to your problem is fairly straightforward. You need to find a game where you can play abc/tight solid poker (where you won't get bored) while at the same time enabling you to make a good living. Because if you aren't crushing it/ having a great life outside of poker then what's the point in taking on so much risk/ stress?

The answer to that is you have to play mixed games or whatever other weird/ unconventional games are going where you live.

As a recreational player who can afford to lose, I often target pros with high variance lines. Very few 2/5 pros are willing to call big bets in marginal spots. I think TAG grinders often underestimate how much they go on autopilot and how easy it can be for even marginally competent players to exploit.

How about not being so eager to put players style of play into boxes as LAG or TAG? Poker isnt about predeciding what "style" you are gonna play, but rather be totally open to what is gonna happen at a particular day at a random table-and adjust to what is going on.

It have always been my opinion that good liveplayers are the ones who adjust constantly to the ongoing dynamics,different kind of villains,stacksizes and other peoples patterns. The really good players just makes the play that the spesific situation craves, even though that can be difficult for sure.

Limon have had some good rants on this one, when he explains how alot of players views him as a lag maniac because he is willing to mix it up with whales and loosy goosy players to exploit them, and alot of other players views him as a nutpeddling nit because he always shows up with the goods against them due to them being callingstations so he makes sure to have it.You need to pay attention, then execute the play that is neccesary to exploit the current situation. Its in these areas of the game alot of the magic is hidden, if youre aiming to be like water, you will fit effortlessly in everywhere.

And as Limon states if you master this: "You will become a beast. You will become a beast! People will simply not know how to handle you".

However, being able to constantly adjust and deploying exploitative plays requires that you pay freaking attention- wich OP seems to admit he is not doing. I find this fairly critical for a 2-5 grinder or above playing for a living to be honest, because that fact alone tells me that you simply are unable to gain the neccesary information needed in order to exploit whats happenning right in front of your eyes. If the decent grinder to your left have a sizing tell where he bets half pot with his value hands and close to full pot when he is bluffing, how are you gonna know if youre not paying enough attention? If the whale in the blinds is on likely monkeytilt from being sucked out in a big pot right before you get dealt KK on the button wich you obviously need to flat to let tilted whale blast off pre- how are you gonna know that he is tilted if youre sitting reading on your smartphone?

In my opinion and experience, i believe that paying extreme level of attention whenever i play is one of my biggest edges in livepoker, and i feel it often gets forgot and is not viewed as important as it really is.Alot of regs ive logged alot of hours with through the years have said to me that they are almost shocked about the level of detail that i observe and remember.Many people goes into the trap of thinking i am just a TAG nutpeddler (especially young lags who have seen Dwan videos on youtube and think they are the new hotshot), then they cant phathom how i seem to "always" end up with the money at the end of the night.One of the answers is that i pay attention, and i adjust. You need to be obsessed with it to become really good at it, like you need to know _everything_ that is going on at whatever table you sit at and that your life was depending on it.

Petrucci there are multiple things you're not considering. If a person is stilling grinding 2/5 after who knows how many years and now that person is auto piloting... I mean this is brutal but that persons' shot at having great success at NL has passed.

I think the cardinal rule most extremely successful long term pros have followed is "follow the money no matter the game". The particular game doesn't matter. The only things that really matters is how much money is being flung around, how many mistakes are being made, and how big those mistakes are for that specific game.

Generally speaking, any game that doesn't have many pros/ grinders in them are the games a professional wants to be playing in. If you look at a typical 2/5 5/T game, it's definitely not what a pro should willingly play if there are better options. In the major areas/ venues there is almost always a better option.

And who's to say Cush won't click with weird/mixed games and totally crush them? Personally I found I was a much better stud, stud8, razz player than I ever was a NL player. I never would have found that out without accepting some risk for curiosity and "following the money".

I dont know if you have OP in mind here or not, but it seems that way. To be clear i dont know OP at all, have never met him and i have no deep insight into his true skillevel. All i know is that i like his thread,it has given me good value- same with his few podcast episodes. My last post was more a general reflection kind of post, and to get across my personal opinions regarding paying attention in games in order to be capable of making the best adjustments.

Besides that i agree with your other points, even though its kind of slamming in open doors in some ways. I think every winning longterm reg is aware that regfilled games or tables filled with many pros is not the best tables from an EV point of view.

Cushlash,

It sounds like your are still trying to work through some of life's most important issues. I am certain you will get there. Enjoy the journey getting there.

Of course you're right that paying attention is very important. I'm just saying the real problem might be the game itself. My last post was for anyone questioning their results and or bored af with the game. I really enjoy cushs' thread, I wish he would open up on hhs like other pgcs/blogs do.

NL players don't realize just how soft the weird/mixed games truly are. The number and $ amount of mistakes you see in a typical session that isn't NL is insane. I don't recommend anyone hop into a live mixed/weird game cold when the stakes are high. But there are steps you can make to ease into it.

This is the path I would take: Read the rules, memorize hand rankings, and basic strat. Then play as much short handed 12g as you can on SWC. While playing SWC formulate/ think about expanding strat on your own. The important part is teaching yourself to recognize and analyze potential spots that go beyond basic strat, and how strategy for different variants overlap. After that watch videos and pay close attention to how your strat and their strat differ.

Reading the draw/stud forums are also very valuable. There's some incredible nuggets of info that high stakes players post for free that you can use in your own games.