WSOP games are definitely special that's for sure. You should play around with some calcs, playing games where people correctly bluff and bluff catch is devastating for a winrate.

New Episode: Some Doug Polk-Inspired Ramblings on Poker/Life

Enjoying the podcasts a lot. The end of this last one definitely resonated a lot with my current thoughts and feelings on poker also. It's weird because sometimes the passion for poker still feels like it's there. It'll show up for a bit here and there and overall I do still like poker and am happier playing than I would be working most other jobs. Tbh I think it's just sort of inevitable though. You, me, and many others have been playing so much nlhe over the last decade of our lives and it's just bound to become less enjoyable over time. On top of that the stress of the variance and swings and it is understandably draining over a long period of time. I think you are smart for trying to figure out additional avenues of things you can monetize though to allow you to break free from poker a bit. I've mostly been 100% poker but imo poker works best part time in conjunction with some other part time income producer. Tricky part is finding another part time thing that actually pays anywhere near as well as poker does.

I have followed this thread from the beginning and the various musings pro and con of being a professional poker player vs. having a real job. I just have to ask:

1) As a poker pro - Where is the "freedom" ? It seems like one needs to be present at the table to win enough to make a job-comparable income amount and that this would take more or less the same number of hours as a job. So where is the freedom? Taking today off? Not having a pre-defined schedule? (which would still require that you to put in the similar amount of time somewhere else during a given period) It seems like the overall net amount of free time is the same. Is it being "your own boss"? Not having to deal with co-workers?

2) It seems that almost any additional avenue of revenue is going to take time, so that feels a lot like a four letter word (WORK). The only "effortless" additional revenue avenues that I can think of require a fairly substantial amount of capital and at least some effort (e.g. passive investments, rental property, franchise).

I can understand how poker pro income might be equivalent or better if one's job prospects are constrained due to limitations such as education, language skills, etc. But outside of that, I am not understanding how poker pro is much different than any other pro; although I suspect that the true income from the other types of pro is actually much greater.

1. The only scenario I think that would make sense is if the pro was young, slightly eccentric, and was happy making ~40-65k a year. The "freedom" would be quitting work for the year immediately after hitting their goal. Some years they might hit their goal after 400 hours and other years it would take 1200+ etc. But generally the older people get the more they want stability and more income.

I'm curious if Vegas poker pros stay in touch and talk about results/ work related stuff. Cush, do you know any pros that fit the above? I.e. Hitting their number every year and then just getting hell out to have fun/relax?

2. Pros looking to get out seem to always get stuck on this one. Opening business are really risky and well nobody likes grinding the bottom of the ladder in a new job/industry. The really important thing is you need to find what you like to do instead of getting a line of work you know you'll hate.

Poker pros are a lazy bunch (no offense to anyone) so they inevitably fall back into poker or something related in some capacity. But that's a good thing because poker is about as close to "passive" income as you're going to get....unless you have a bunch of capital or very good friends/connections. So yeah, ultimately a real job is the best route as youre implying.

New Episode: Claifying Poker Freedom and Being a Maximizer

Thanks man, I somehow missed this when I was recording, will cover it in the episode I record today but it wont come out for a couple weeks so I wanted to respond quickly here as well.

The bolded part of your post sums it up perfectly. Every once in a while there is a glimmer of poker passion and overall it feels better than most jobs but its still super draining after a certain amount of time.

Until my recent job and other projects I'm trying I have been essentially 100% poker also. I agree that poker is better as one of multiple income streams, but I also agree that its hard to find anything part time that pays as well as poker. In the past I would usually abandon anything that didn't seem like it would be able to replace poker or be a viable sole source of income reasonably quickly. However, lately I'm finding it extremely valuable to have money coming in from other sources even if its only a fraction of my expenses at first and even if it takes more time that it would take to make the same amount at poker. Even those small amounts of money from other sources can reduce the stress of poker pretty significantly. And even if I spend say, 20 hours on poker and 20 hours on the side projects to make the same that I would make in 30 hours of poker, somehow the latter seems more manageable than the former, probably because there is some more variation in my weekly tasks.

Another consideration is that from what I've gathered, most things take a lot longer to come to fruition than poker. So dismissing something because my hourly is initially going to be less than poker is shortsighted since for a lot of things you have to stick it out for a while making a less than poker to eventually be able to make more, sometimes much more. I've made this mistake a ton and am trying my best to go after side projects without comparing the initial hourly to poker and instead looking at the long term viability of the project combined with how interested I am in doing it to asses whether it is worth doing.

That's my two cents. Obviously you have to consider the financial aspect when assessing new projects, but the hourly rate compared to poker right off the bat isn't the be-all end-all criteria.

Idk man, grinding full time for 6 months and having 6 months to do/go whatever the hell you want sounds close to freedom to me. Especially with how many pros complain/ dread about having to play 20 hours every week/ weekends etc. I say just suck it up and get it over with.

Irt passive income... i was trying to say (nicely) that you will never generate true passive income being in the position you're in. If you were grinding T/20 or lol mixed games then yeah I def think it's possible. But 2/5? Nah.

I think we might be defining passive income differently.

Passive income is income coming from a source that you have to do very little. Like for example investing your money in the stock market, the gains from that would be considered passive income. Or if you had some sort of website where you had to do very little maintenance and received money for people clicking ads. etc etc.

How do you expect to buy a rental property making mid 5 figures? Do you know how many rentals it takes to live off them ~exclusively? Do you know what the returns on div stocks are? You're going to need a bunch of capital and there's simply no way you're going to get there quickly (if at all) through 2/5.

If the goal is to make passive income and live a semi frugal/ relaxed life then bro get a real, high paying job (even if you hate it), suck it up and collect the money. You don't want a real job and that's totally cool ok... but the delusion of generating normal avenues of passive income grinding 2/5 is kinda sad and a pipedream every other lol live pro has.

You could write ebook or start a website... however they require an insane amount of work, knowledge/ skill and a brilliant idea. It's not impossbike but it's def a long shot and not something you should be depending on/ taking seriously imo.

I can't edit my last post. But as gamin has alluded to... it takes real WORK and sacrifice along with planning and discipline to get what you want. There's no other way around putting in the work and long hours. I honestly don't know how you'll generate enough capital without playing 2k hours a year (which you said you'd never do) or getting a full time job and grinding 1k hours on the side.

Think about it

Yo dude, it's been a couple years since we filmed that interview. I think it would be cool to do a follow up and talk a little bit about your experience trying out a traditional job then getting back into poker again. We could also plug your podcast as I'm sure there would be a good crossover audience.

Jumping into the new episode now Cush, love the speed of the podcasts releases these days

Yea this is exactly what I mean when I say passive income.

Totally agree. I mentioned in some previous episodes that I am not afraid of working and am currently working towards non-poker income producing projects. As you say though it takes time, so after a few months I'm not there yet but on the right track I think.

Yea man for sure! Had a lot of fun last time. I'm out of town until early July, will hit you up when I get back.

Haha nice man glad you're enjoying it, let me know what you think!

I'm not necessarily picking on you, but one of the constant things I've noticed from all the pgcs ive read is the tendency for poker pros to make life as hard as possible on themselves due to how lazy/ short sighted they are.

I mean look. You have a ~45k a year skill set playing poker. That's great but it's not near enough to accumulate wealth for investment opportunities. You need more capital per year and preferably a variance free source of income (along with the poker). If all of your sources of income are variable, somewhere down the line you're going to get ****ed/ be cash short and be forced/ pressured into liquidating your investments. It happens all the time- people get locked in, overextend themselves and eventually end up getting burned.

3-5 years (which lets be honest, is nothing) of real work and poker on the side and you'll own or be close to owning your own home or investment property outright. 5-10 years and you'll basically be able to live semi retired before you reach 40. Which tbh is everyone's pipe dream poker player or otherwise. You have a sick opportunity to build a very nice life.... it's up to you if you want it or not.

When you don't have rent/mortgage hanging over your head and fixed passive income coming in every month, you can create a whole bunch of creative investment opportunities... because ultimately they won't make much but you won't need much either.

One last note. The guy who makes 50k at a real job and another 45k on the side playing 2/5 5/10 has an infinitely more enjoyable and more stable life than someone grinding 10/20+ for a living.

People aren't making 45k on the side at 2/5 when they work a full time job as well. But 10-20k on the side seems feasible.

The only thing stopping a pro/former pro from grinding out 45k+ on the side is motivation. Especially in Vegas, someone could log 800-1k hours "part time" no sweat playing 2/5 and 5/T.

Theres not too many other ways to say it... but if you want to be exceptional/ more than the avg Joe then you have to go above and beyond. The good news is most people are just lazy/ unmotivated.... so most of the work is simply restructuring your time and eliminating a lot of bs stuff.

New episode: Poker-Related Stress, Anxiety and Depression

There's no point in wishing or whining. It's brutal to put it that way but you either accept your position for what it is and continue or you move forward in your life with something else.

You and other pros shouldn't be surprised at lower winrates and added variance... FR NLHE has been analyzed, studied, and taught to DEATH for the last ~15 years. It's a fact players have gotten better and as a result lose much less the more time passes by. Even the mechanics of full ring itself is bad for the longevity of the game. It forces you to be heavily dependent on winning at showdown (less skill) compared to being more dependent on winning at non showdown with a wider range (more skill) playing say huhu or sh.

As I've said many times before... if you want to be playing in games as soft as nl was in 2004, then you have to be playing mixed games, plo8, big o etc. The skill gap and ev in some of those games can be huge if you have the right skill set.

That works out to about $50 an hour though, which you say is impossible at 2/5 (and I kind of agree, especially in Vegas as opposed to less "pro"-infested markets). Even if all those hours are at 5/10, you still have to be winning at 15BB/100. Do you think the 5/10 games in Vegas are soft enough (not including during the WSOP) to be beaten for that amount? Especially considering if the pro is grinding it "on the side", that implies they're not a casino rat who's able to be around all the time so that when the juiciest games pop off they're right there.

Very good podcast. I listened to the whole thing. Very honest and informative.

This is interesting and I'm glad you brought it up. Through discipline and meticulous planning I think it's possible. It means only playing when games meet certain criteria and religiously bumhunting. It means structuring most of your volume through certain times and events during the year.

The criteria would be deep 2/5, juicy 5/T only, and short handed whenever you can get it. There are months during the year where it's simply not worth it to play / does not meet the criteria. That means having the discipline to not play them (even if you have an edge), and be willing to put in monster hours when the games are good.

I'm going to get flamed, but most pros don't have the roll /luxury to only play when games are amazing. And the ones that do are too stupid/lazy to only play during the best times. I mean pros just go in every week no matter what and play whatever they can find... and then they tap out after ~1200 hours.

There will be years where you might only play 500 quality hours, there will be other years where you might play 1200 hours. The fact that a serious winning rec doesn't rely on poker income gives them a big edge over pros imo. As TY said, there will be years where you only make 10-20k, and there will be other years where you make 50-60k+.

It is a interesting theoretical concept. It seems like a lot of the time would be spent driving from one room to another, walking the room looking for the perfect game, not finding it (after x amount of time looking) and then either going to another room or heading back home. What happens when the short game breaks or fills up with the "wrong" players or the "wrong" players quit? By itself that seems like a lot of time/effort and would probably turn that theoretical $50/hour into something quite less once the amount of time going from room to room looking for the perfect situation is factored in. Perhaps an online bot (no driving required, available 24 hours per day) could have the discipline to act that way, but I am not sure that a human could over any significant length of time.

To quote Yogi Berra: "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is."

Knowing when/where to play is almost as important as knowing how to play well imo. I imagine there will be more than a few nights where you strike out and go home w/o playing a hand. But it won't be that common if you're playing at the right times i.e. Wsop, mini tournament series, march madness etc etc. Especially for regs and pros like Cush since they've played so long in Vegas they should have tabs about what games go and where etc... at least more than what bravo and forums say.

As for your other points... if you're playing live poker and constantly play in all reg/pro games then you're doing it wrong. There's no way to get close to $50/hr unless you're playing deep stacked with fish/action players.