I'm not sure this paints an entirely accurate picture. Yea I spent a few years getting good but the last 2-3 years have been mostly grinding. Of course I've gotten better during that time but I've also made money. My hourly has remained fairly consistent over the last 3-4 years (despite me getting better, games have gotten worse). Its not like I worked my ass off in medical school making no money and going into debt and then just said nah to being a doctor.


This I definitely agree with. The window to capitalize on my nl skills is closing and unless something unforseeable happens I'm never going to make as much as I am now.

However, that isn't enough of a reason to do it. If this was the poker boom then yea, suck it up and play a ton for a few years and I might be set for life. But that's not the landscape right now. I'd make a fraction of what I would have made in the boom. Two years of grinding in this climate would far from set me up for a comfortable life. As the amount I can make from poker approaches what I can make in the real world it makes less and less sense to stay in poker. Of course when guys were making ridiculous money in poker it made sense to do that. But just because I can make more now that I probably will be able to in the future doesn't mean that's the play. Putting off entering the real world to make 500k/year is a lot different than doing that for 100k/year.

I wasn't trying to be insulting or insinuating you didn't make any money for years playing poker before becoming a winning player. I'm just pointing out that practically everyone has a roughish learning period of a few years before they make top top win rates. Some don't even get there. Not just in poker but in practically anything else you have have to pay your dues.

You know the LV poker climate far better than I do, so I can't say anything with near certainty. However, I think you can set yourself up with a good life with a couple or few really hard years of grinding. If you don't find employment- i'm talking about pushing near 3000 hours (and if you can't get 3k hours in playing 2/5 that means grinding out 1/3/(6) ). I got into this with someone else in a different thread- an extra 40-65k per year is not small change. That kind of money can be a down payment on your first house, a good chunk towards a rental property, or to pay off loans, or to jump start a business idea you have etc.

Yeah you're going to burn out. Yeah you're going to absolutely hate poker by the end of it. But as you agreed with and have noticed- no limit is going down the tubes, and now is the time to kill it for everything you've got and to rest later imo. Like if I was single and living in LV, outside of work I would probably be spending as much waking time possible at the tables "slumming" it up. It's also a mindset shift- that money isn't going into hooker, blow, cars, clothing etc... it's being reinvested into yourself in the form of possibly a property, small business etc.

Definitely didn't take it as insulting, I appreciate you taking the time to offer feedback. Hunkering down and grinding for a few years is definitely an option, its just not a very attractive option imo. If I put 3k hours/yr into a non-poker venture I'd probably come out better financially after a few years I'd guess, though I might be completely wrong.

I also don't think I'm capable of playing that kind of volume unless I absolutely had to. If my back was against the wall, sure, I could do it. I'd hate life, but I could do it. For a few years now I've played the bare minimum volume, not by design, but because once I have my basic needs met financially, the extra money I'd get from playing more poker has not been worth it to me. Every time I try to play more I fizzle out pretty quickly. I've become aware of the fact that unless I need the money, I have no motivation to play anymore. I'm by no means scoffing at the extra money I could make by playing more, its just that the "cost" of having to play longer hours isn't worth it to me. Which is why I want to move on to something else. I am not happy with my current level of income, but playing more poker to get that income would decrease my happiness more than the extra money would increase it. Therefore, it seems to me that the play is to find something that I can stand, or even enjoy, long enough to make a more optimal level of yearly income.

Edit: This next part got sorta ranty. upswinging, this is not directed at you personally and I don't want to put words in your mouth. Just some general thoughts that ended up spewing out related to this subject.

I realize that this is really hard to convey to other people and I might sound crazy to some. I've already been called an entitled, lazy whiner (or something to that effect) multiple times in this thread. "Gee come on man just go play more. You play a game for a living it can't be thaaaaat bad. You're just spoiled/soft/privileged. Suck it up and work hard".

I wish it was that easy. When I'm not playing and thinking about the situation I have the same thoughts. I think "Man poker really is pretty cool, gives me all these perks and all I have to do is play a silly game. I'm just gonna start putting in the volume and really take advantage of my situation". Then 2 hours into my next session, regardless of the results, I'll inevitably be sitting at a poker table thinking "Nah, **** that, I was wrong. I want to leave, this is boring and I hate it".

I'm not comparing myself to a professional athlete by any means, but now I understand the guys that retire early and leave millions of dollars on the table. To everyone else its like "Just play for a few more years and you'll make X million more, other people would kill for that opportunity". But until you're in their shoes you can't possibly understand all the factors. Of course I'm not risking severe bodily injury like they are, all I'm saying is that you might make a vastly different decision than what you think you'd do if you were actually in that situation. Every f*cking married guy on the planet sees a smoking hot girl and thinks "if only I was single, I'd be all over her". But when most of those same exact guys were single they were too busy playing grab ass with their friends in the corner making excuses and saying "whatever she's probably a b*tch anyway".

Just as an example of that last concept. Here is a post I made in Limon's GOAT thread in the summer of 2011, approximately 1 year before moving out to Vegas. It's post #1186 in his random shyt thread.

I am in that EXACT situation right now (of being a 2/5 pro) and I want out. I was DEAD F*CKING WRONG about what I "would do" if I was in that spot. The only way I could know what I would do was to actually be in that spot in real life.

The perfect job/occupation/situation/relationship is elusive at best. To quote the Gerswhin brothers, "Nice work if you can get it, and if you get it, tell me how."

I sort of feel obligated to give some sort of solid advice. I mean there's just so much degen garbage/ bad advice in some of these threads. It wouldn't bother me but some of it is interpreted as actual, real, good advice. It's more tilting to me than watching a "pro" berate a fish. I also realize i sort of come off as an armchair commander/ portray everything as easy or sweet etc. I'm not trying to oversell anything. And i've also had some real **** jobs and put in some insane grinding because that's what needed to happen.

I'm simply pointing out again that poker is a really bad long term choice, but also a pretty sweet short term option (if you go 150% and ****ing kill it for whats it's worth and not coast). So in that sense I agree with Squid. However, I was just pointing out that option is rapidly closing and you're honestly not going to have it unless moving out of state is on the table (even then idk). Like you should be starting to explore other plan b and plan c options if the employment doesn't go like you want.

IRT not having it in you to grind it out for the money. I think that's just a philosophical/ life difference. And while I agree with you that some things just need to be experienced before you can truly understand what the other side was saying- this isn't one of them. Like the regular job route is the best long term solution- but there's no clear path to accumulating wealth/ generating cash flow in the short term. Whereas with poker imo there is a definite clear shot path for you to make some serious dough (with some serious grinding of course), which can generate cash flow and make your life insanely much better. Having cash flow is the ****ing nuts.

Lol i mean some people in the other thread were laughing at 180k. What ****ing planet are they living on to think an extra 180k isn't worth it/ has no utility? That's a small business right there, or maybe even a duplex, or some acreage etc. I guess it's just a poker fish vs life fish sort of deal.

You have to realize, most people on 2p2, despite being 100$ per hour + poker crushers, all abandon playing for a living because of the copious amount of multi million dollar opportunities they have available to them. So yea, grinding out an extra 200k means nothing to most of them.

Just repeating what I said back in mid November 2015. "Mediocre results/volume" is not meant as an insult. It just means that your results/volume aren't delivering enough happiness for you to want to grind.

Tough love...

Agreed. I'm not looking for perfect, though I admit that sometimes I think I expect too much from what I do for a living.

You make a lot of good points. The cash flow situation is what I've always been striving for. Its totally possible that I just got impatient, couldn't see the forest for the trees and stopped a bit prematurely while on a decent path. I still need to be looking for a different long-term plan, because poker isn't it. But I don't disagree that right now taking advantage of poker in the short term would likely make things easier down the road.

haha everyone on the internet is a crusher

This is fair, I've been dragging my feet on getting out for too long so the tough love is certainly warranted. I'm definitely more apt to agree with you now that I was then.

The dilemma of life seems to be that if you find something you like doing, then in order to be successful or the best at it, you have to do it so often and put in so many hours that you no longer like doing it.

Seems like the people that never get tired of the enormous grind required in any endeavor are the ones able to rise to the top because not only do they possess innate talent but they are also able and willing to work harder than anyone else and it doesn't seem to bother them in the least, they actually like it.

I could never get there with poker, the more I played, the less I liked it. Therefore I never got any better and would now be considered a fish by probably the vast majority of devoted poker players. Fortunately, I had a job that I was obsessed with, loved and was willing to grind massive volume until I became financially independent because I had saved enough "**** you" money.

One thing that worked for me was buying duplexes, living in half while my tenant payed most of the mortgage allowing me to live virtually free. Then after a few years, I'd buy another one. Rinse and repeat, pay them off early and then have several you can live off as you get older. You can do a lot of other things to reduce your living costs so you can build up your cash reserves asap, a lot of which just revolve around what kind of "sacrifices" you're willing to make.

I have bought 2 cars in the last 22 years and still have them both, some consider this a huge sacrifice and have to buy a new car every few years, fortunately, I never considered this a sacrifice.

Its sad to see poker contract so much, especially after having a first row seat since trying to go pro in the late 90's (got my ass handed to me and left Vegas after 30 days) to jumping on the internet train before most where willing to dive in (I miss Planet Poker). To now, where government, technology and competition are squeezing margins at a rapidly accelerating pace.

Its an odd industry.

Every other competitive business results in a better product at a lower price for the consumer but with poker it means lower margins, less games and perhaps eventually no industry at all.

It would help prolong the life of poker if the worlds dip **** governments hadn't fragmented the hell out of the market or ban it completely. I never play anymore but the arrogance of government on this issue still infuriates me. I miss the days when poker was dominating the airwaves and ad money was flowing like a river. IIRC, CardPlayer magazine got close to being a 1/2' thick and there was some type of poker show on tv virtually every night.

Ah, those were the days

Yimyyammer (Post #1735) - Excellent post/observations. I expressed the desire to move to and live in Paris to my french teacher. She said, "Don't do it - right now you love Paris, after you live there for a few years, it will lose its magic and just be another big city." I think that this is actually true for a number of things (including poker/careers/jobs).

So, unless you are financially independent, you have to accept the fact that some type of work is inevitable (sorry Cushlash - you're young, with boundless optimism and I hate to spoil your dreams). Once you accept that you will have to work, you need to find the balance between how much income is enough and how much work is enough. Personally I side towards more income because it gets you to financial freedom quicker and the perks along the way ease the pain; also as you get older, you have a greater understanding of what it truly costs to maintain a reasonable lifestyle (like they say a million isn't what it used to be, and it will be even less 20-30 years from now).

Couple of the last posts were solid. Although I strongly disagree that very successful people don't get bored/ burnt out/ want to quit etc. I think the topic is extremely interesting, i've done quite a bit of reading on the subject in the past. By and far the large majority of major success stories come from people who hit success fast, hard, and early- which ultimately gives them the insane drive and dedication to keep going. When you get a taste or think that you're on to something big- that gives you insane motivation. Big is a relative word so please don't nit pick that. And then there is the relatively small group of people that are true grinders/ hard asses that could clinically be called insane- those that beat their heads against the wall for 10-15 years before any real success. Everyone thinks of these types of underdog stories first because they appeal to the feelz- i mean come on, who doesnt like an underdog/ rudy story.

IMO there are two main things that prevent average people from being successful. The first is a lack of discipline. They develop bad habits, they don't correct them, and they become essentially doomed to their "fate". Tons of tons of relatively smart capable people who fall into this category. And the second is stubbornness- the inability to let go of the past and logically analyze the present and future. I mean how many blowhards do you know that won't let their dreams go- musician, writer, actor, POKER PRO etc. Their window has long passed them by- in some cases they were practically drawing dead but they're still trying to stick a square peg into a hole. Or even worse- the guys who did have some level of success/ big or not but their window has clearly passed but they're too blind to see it. << it's pretty cruel because these guys fall into the group 2 category, and when one of them hits it big it reinforces results oriented thinking.



cliffs- 1. be disciplined, develop good habits 2. move on to something else relatively quickly if you're not getting the results you want.

I also agree with being "nitty" with certain things in real life that don't actually provide any real long term joy or value. It's not about how much you make, it's about how much you save.

"Every dollar you save buys you more freedom." Paraphrasing Limon from one of you poker sesh videos on youtube.

Parking Question - How are dealing with the pay-to-park situation?

Funny enough I came across this video on Twitter today. It basically sums up my entire viewpoint on life.

The last few posts from yimyammer, GaminDeBuci and upswinging were all great and have been extremely helpful to me in terms of getting some perspective and making sense of my situation. So thanks to you guys and everyone else who posts here.

Wynn doesn't charge for parking. I don't go to any MGM properties.

Thanks for the parking advice. I will need that when I come out in June.

While pondering all your options, are you still in Vegas, cush?

Yep

Glad to help.

It's actually pretty fun figuring out what things you don't need but spend money on anyways. An employee making 50k/yr who has a utility over trend/fashion mindset is almost certainly making more and enjoying themselves than the clueless moron making 100k/yr

Couldn't agree more. I think a lot about the things that actually make me happy. Thus, what I would need to "retire" is much less than conventional wisdom, at least in the U.S.

Couldn't agree more with this post. Very good advice. I would add stay out of debt to this post, but probably falls under good habits. I see that take down more people and cause them to be slaves to an unproductive or unhealthy lifestyle.

Freedom from debt allows you to really do almost anything you want to. Not having a mortgage payment will allow me to retire at 58 with no financial worries. Above all else I would make this priority one and everything else falls into place including being able to whatever you are passionate about. And to all the people who say that carrying a mortgage is "good" debt...save it, I work in the real estate business and just about every wealthy person I have met, paid off their house mortgage as fast as they could.

Wondering where things are standing now, Cush...any new thoughts or decisions? You going to grind the WSOP?

Also, a point regarding the recent discussion about life/money choices.

I am in my early forties and have some friends in various ends of the spectrum and have seen some different versions of "success" and "failure."

For example, I hated working the 9-5 corporate gig that I did for like a decade and finally was able to get out of it, start my own business, and essentially made it out of that cubicle hell. I've working for myself the last 6 years and feel like I would work my ass off to never go back.

I also have a close friend who felt like me, became a guidance counselor, and has a fairly decent job that he likes well enough with lots of vacation time and a pretty good salary/pension. The job can still suck, he has to take a lot of **** at times, and it took years for him to get through the schooling and so forth to achieve this position.

I have another good friend who is a musician, lives very frugally, gives lessons and plays small gigs, and essentially works like maybe 20-25 hours a week. He lives like a king in terms of free time and is a very happy dude. Basically works when he wants and doesn't take gigs he doesn't want. But he lives a very modest lifestyle, is extremely frugal and most people would struggle to control expenses the way he does. His discipline with food/living budget is insane.

And finally, I have a very close friend who literally doesn't work at all. Refuses to have a job of any sort, does artsy stuff, and has a woman who seems happy to support him. Before he lived with her, he was kind of a couch surfing vagabond but people really like him and he always had a place to crash.

My most unhappy friend is kind of stuck in the middle. He works at a very small start up about 25-30 hours a week, doesn't make crap for money, and is constantly stressed and seems super unhappy with his situation. He doesn't want to work harder or find a better gig, but he hates being broke.

I think the lesson, to me, is about finding out what truly makes you happy and what is most important to you. Although I value freedom, I also have been willing to work very hard at times to make more money. Some of my close friends have refused to work hard and have seemed content to just make do with less.

But if you go against your natural tendencies, that is when I have seen people "fail." Failure, from what I have gathered, is based on what someone's needs and values are in terms of money, security and lifestyle. Those who have a clear understanding of their own goals and needs, who make a concerted effort to achieve those things, seem to be happy and relatively stable.

Those who try and do things they "think" they should want to do (but really don't) have ended up seeming to feel frustrated and struggling for much of the time around finances and work/life balance, etc.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for posting, this definitely resonates with me. Particularly the stuff about failing being a function of going against your natural tendencies. As your post illustrates, there are many paths and there's not one answer to the "how should I live my life?" question. I actually think a lot about what this means for me. There are times when I feel that poker is in a way repressing my natural tendencies, almost as if I have to push away who I am in order to be successful at it. I suspect that part of this is that a lot of what makes us human doesn't line up with the things that make for good poker players.

I was at a 51's baseball game recently and was chatting with a friend who told me that umpires have to go through a training where they stand behind a net and have fastballs thrown at their head until they train themselves not to blink. They essentially have to train their minds and bodies to go against every natural human instinct so that when they are umpiring a game they can maintain eye contact to call balls and strikes effectively.

I think to become good at poker requires a lot of this type of training. We repress our natural tendencies to react to good or bad cards so people don't know that we have the nuts or are bluffing. We train ourselves not to care about winning and losing because it would negatively affect our ability to play our A-game. Its one giant exercise of emotional repression. And when it bleeds into real life it becomes problematic. EV wise its great to be completely indifferent when some whale hit his flush after he called all-in on a draw against your set. Or to stack up a 4k pot like you don't even care (because at this point you actually don't). But when it affects your ability to have fun in real life because you've trained yourself to not be happy when "good" things happen on the table it can be devastating. Not being able to enjoy normal things because you've trained yourself to be a robot on the table and that training remained when you were off the felt can look and feel a lot like what I imagine depression feels like.

This has been a huge factor for me wanting to get out of poker. Its not super fun to feel like I'm going against my natural instincts in order to succeed. I feel like I'd be much better off finding something in which success is more aligned with my strengths and natural instincts. The guys I see crushing poker (or anything really) are doing so because they work hard and it aligns with their strengths. Could I get a lot better if I worked harder? Of course. But it seems my efforts would go a lot farther if I put that work towards something more aligned with my strengths. I could probably make some progress if I worked my ass off to swim upstream, but I'd get a heck of a lot farther if I put that same effort into swimming downstream.

As far as what I'm up to, I think it comes down to the last part of your post. Essentially I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you mention: Trying to figure out my best balance for freedom/happiness and working hard/making money. Then using that along with my strengths to determine what I should be doing with my life. In the short term I will be playing some poker, but I wouldn't really call it "grinding the wsop". I'll be playing my normal amount of hours while it just so happens to be wsop. With the rest of my time I'm networking and trying to build up non-poker skills. As I mentioned before I have some potential project work with a CPA firm which should start near the end of the summer. I've been reading a beginner data science book as a way to sharpen my excel skills and potentially learn something that will make me more valuable. Ideally I'd be able to build a skill set I could use to do freelance/consulting/project work or start a business around it because if applying to jobs has done anything its confirmed that I want nothing to do with the corporate world long term.

Check out SABRs post. Finally someone the peanut gallery respects is actually talking about it. Do you honestly believe that the "pro" making 2x or 3x or 4x whatever you make is actually 2 or 3 or 4x better than you are? Do you actually believe the reason that they make so much more money than you comes down to memorizing very specific scenarios/ranges/ theory that don't even frequently occur? Lol do you believe that those crushers have even studied/ know about those spots inside and out? And that they're busting ass in the lab/ every waking moment thinking about spots/ ranges etc? I think not.

I think it's hilarious and also sort of tilting hearing/ reading about these "crushers" talk about downswings and breakeven stretches and emotional control when they've never been truly been ****ing tested on them themselves. Of course they can remain stoic and unemotional when all they do is flop sets or tptk and cooler fish every single session (and then they go on to be apart of some training site/ coaching/ stable) when their true key to success is basically just a TAG abc game and running better than everyone else.

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else- but the guys who are truly freaking good at the game ie know tons of theory/ strat etc are also the ones that go through insane swings. I mean the more you know, the closer you can cut it to the edge- the lighter you can bluff catch, the thinner you can c/r, the thinner you can value bet etc etc which also means you're going to have bigger swings. It's weird that people assume the bigger the edge= less variance when it's actually not true at all imo.

I know that sounds super angsty/bitter but it's the truth and needs to be said. I don't want the next part to mean i'm talking ****/trash, it's just an obvious example: i've watched a few videos of the most popular vegas vlogger/youtuber. Sounds like a really chill dude, however he makes some the biggest/ most obvious mistakes ever, generally plays (at least from the hands he posts) like a tag fish. Doesn't have a lot of theory down, thinks about spots pretty pooly and yet just crushes it. If i ran half has good as he has, i would prbably still be in poker

Anyone crushing the game over a large enough sample size is a legit crusher and is doing many things very right. That's how it works, that's what it means.

Obviously over an insufficient sample size a crusher may not actually be a true crusher they may just be running good.

No one just runs better than everyone else in the long term, that's not possible.

I feel like Upswinging should know and understand all of that already.