Yea this is very true. I'm a big Limon fan and have been reading and listening to his stuff since way before I played full time. The longer I play full time the more true I find his opinions to be, despite him often being scoffed at on here.

Thanks man, I honestly can't wait to start traveling.

Yea a couple guys have been talking about getting some golf going soon. Will PM you.

Thanks man, will PM.

Yea I agree completely. In the last few months I have become pretty fond of the idea of just playing on the side for fun/extra money. I can't say for sure I'd like it better but its something I would like to try.

Yea I'm great at 9s. I always let the whales win their first time out and then up the stakes later. Works every time

Yea I'm definitely gonna chill out for a while. When I want to play I will. March Madness is tough because the games are good but I also want to watch the bball games. Last year I opted to play many of those days and missed a lot of the basketball and regretted it after.

GL getting back on track, hit me up if you wanna do something during your time off.

I was expecting to get this type of response, and I do understand how it sounds from your and others perspectives. Hence why I included this:

The only thing I can really say here is that until you play poker as your sole source of income its impossible for me to explain it to you. I was the same way before I started playing for a living. I would read posts from pros on here saying how its not always fun, how its miserable a lot and they don't recommend people doing it, etc. To me though it sounded like the best thing ever. Its not until you do it yourself and see the reality of poker as a living that you understand.

I think this is pretty well evidenced by the fact that a bunch of people that play for a living, many of whom I know irl, respond saying they understand and feel similarly, while those who do not play for a living say that I'm just whining or whatever.

As far as me needing perspective and not understanding how good I have it, I'd invite you to re-read this part of my post:

I can't really pinpoint it, but theres something about playing poker all the time that just leaves something to be desired. Despite caring significantly less about money that I previously had, I did not see this happening when I started out playing poker for a living. I thought as long as I made the amount I "needed" and had fulfillment in other areas of life I'd be happy.

I have accomplished a lot personally and that has provided fulfillment in my life, but the amount of time poker would take up to make it a viable long-term option for me is more time than I'm willing to spend doing something that provides nothing but money.

Thanks, I think?

Hate to beat a dead horse, but again, thats why I included this:


I'm not sure how me not playing poker full time anymore would be "doing the poker industry a favor". Again, if you don't think I appreciate how good I have it, I invite you to re-read this part of my post:

Wiick sounds a bit angry at his own situation maybe and is projecting anger towards cushlash about it

I have been considering doing some more PLO/mix stuff, but haven't for a couple reasons. First, I'm looking short-term with poker and my goal is to maximize my hourly. To do that I need to play NL. While its true it would probably be optimal to sacrifice some short term gain for long term gain by spending time on other games, right now my time horizon for poker isn't long enough for me to reap the benefits of putting the time in with other games.

Secondly, the reasons for my being disillusioned with poker doesn't have to do with not liking NL. As I mentioned in my post, I still enjoy the strategy of it and am better than I ever have been from a technical standpoint. To this day I still spend time improving my game. What I don't like is the slow pace of the game and the environment I'm in, which is going to be true no matter which game I decide to play, so switching games is not going to solve my problems. Last year I thought it would so I experimented with other games a bunch and learned that wasn't the answer.

Thanks man. You've told me from the day I met you to get out ASAP. At the time my eyes were still glazed over enough to nod, say I understand, but keep playing thinking it was different for me.

I see more and more the advantages of playing for side income.

Hope the heater continues for ya!

Yea its crazy important to do other things, which I have harped on a ton itt. I think I've done a good job of that and its still not enough for me personally.

The point about freedom is one I want to expand upon. While I do love the freedom of playing poker, it can be a facade sometimes. What outsiders fail to realize is that you are still an hourly employee, you just work for yourself. So if you want to make a certain amount of money, you have to work a certain amount of hours. If you don't work, you don't get paid. Everyone here I'm sure is aware that you can't just leave after an hour because you're up your daily quota. So at some point you have to put in the time whether you want to or not.

Yea you get to choose when you play, but even thats not true sometimes. I don't know how many times I've had poker friends decline an invite because it was on a weekend or special occasion when the games were going to be above average.

I find this absurd because I play poker so I can have the flexibility to work when I want and don't mind having a smaller hourly to have that flexibility. However, not everyone feels that way. They want to maximize their hourly at all times, which drastically decreases their flexibility since they "have" to play certain days/hours.

So yea, I can come and go as I please, but in the end, I still need to spend a certain amount of time in the casino if I want to make my nut. I get to more or less decide my own schedule because I'm ok making a lower hourly to gain flexibility. However, those that want to play only when games are the best or play bigger/non-NL games where they can make even more don't even have this luxury.

Writing here helps me a ton and I have people I talk to irl. Along with the reflection I do on my own I think I do a good job of working through my thoughts.

I certainly wouldn't laugh at someone recommending a counselor as I think they can be beneficial. As far as this goes, right now I feel like I have a good idea on what my course of action is so I don't see a reason to talk to a counselor.

Yea and I think logging this amount of hours is an absurd way to live, no matter what occupation. There are tons of ways to make a living, and its not as if the only options are poker or this false paradigm you have for what the "civilized world" does.

I'm not looking for sympathy, as I stated I nearly didn't even post it because it seemed too personal. I also have twice quoted the part where I said how lucky I am to be doing what I'm doing so get the **** out of here with that nonsense.

Again, you're taking it to an extreme here.

The meeting new people part is pretty lol since a major part of casinos being energy sucking is precisely the type of people casinos attract. I'm obviously not complaining about it being physically hard or the food being bad so you can take your straw man argument someplace else.

Your thought of quitting poker and doing something else is EXACTLY WHAT I'M DOING. Did you even read the post? I'm not making a major change right this second because in a couple months I'll be out of the country for 6 weeks, and am more or less staying at my current "job" until then.

Once again:
It sounds like you aren't happy with your occupation, but you should know that there are jobs out there where you aren't ruled by the iron fist like you seem to view all full time jobs. I have talked to tons of people across many fields who have flexible hours, work from home, make their own schedules, get plenty of vacation, etc.

I'd like to find something that has similar freedom of poker without some of the negatives, and I know these occupations exist based on having met many people who have them. I need to find one that fits for me and do it.

The bolded is pretty much my only problem with being a poker player. I got into poker for the freedom and lifestyle it provides. I think if it were all about money, poker players could become CPAs for example and make tons of money down the line but would have to sacrifice way too much of their time being chained to a desk 60+ hours a week to do so.

If I want to make more money in poker I have to put in the hours which can be grueling at times especially when I'm not feeling motivated or simply do not want to do so. Today for example, I do not want to go play. I likely will still put in a small session because I have both hourly and monetary goals I would like met both in the short and in the long term. Yes, I have the freedom to not play if I choose, but I can't reach my goals or make any money at all by being lazy and watching Netflix all night.

This is what I would like to change. Passive income is the key in life and end game for most intelligent poker players i know. Some go the real estate route, some the business route. Finding that route has been my challenge for some time now.

Already quoted this but just wanted to add a few things. First, you probably overestimate how much I make. Because I take advantage of the freedom I have and choose not to work many hours, I make less per year than someone with a pretty mediocre 9-5 despite a higher hourly. Thats a trade I'm more than happy to make since though I'm not "rich" by most people's definition, I feel rich because of the time freedom I have. I could make a lot more by playing 40 hours a week or playing graveyard shift, but at that point I've essentially given up the freedom poker can provide and I might as well have a 9-5.

I've long said that I could make a lot more playing poker if I worked harder or played longer hours, but I don't actually want to do that. If I wanted to work a normal amount of hours I'd just use my finance degree and take a job making similar money (actually probably more) without the stress of income uncertainty.

It just so happens that its now to the point that I don't even want to play enough volume to maintain what I've been doing the last couple years. The negatives have outweighed the positives in my mind and I'm looking to do something else. My income in poker is extremely capped for several reasons, many of them self imposed (i.e. not wanting to play long hours or work hard to beat bigger/more stressful games). Since I'm not in love with playing anymore, and for the reasons discussed can't make more than I could make in another realm, it makes sense to move on. To what exactly I don't know yet.

I understand your frustration with someone being unhappy with a situation you think is better than yours or better than "most people", but I don't make my life decisions based on whether or not my situation is better than most people's. I make them based on whether or not I'm happy in my situation. Comparing ones life to other people's lives is a major source of unhappiness and I try my best to avoid these comparisons. There will always be someone better off and will always be someone worse off. Living in the projects in a major US city is way better than living in a slum in a 3rd world country. Does that mean that people in the projects should stop complaining, be happy and not try to improve their situation just because someone else would probably kill to be them?

There are tons of college football players that wanted more than anything to make it to the NFL but didn't. Does that mean that guys like Patrick Willis, Jason Worilds and Jake Locker should keep playing just because other people would if they were them?

On the flip side, no matter how many millions/billions I make, there will always be someone making more. Always striving for more and more isn't the answer either, as that will simple lead to an unfulfilling, "never enough" existence.

If I wanted to settle for a better than average situation I could just stop now. I was lucky enough to be born in a 1st world country and given some incredible opportunities and advantages on top of it. The important question to me isn't "Is my situation better than most people's?" or "What would this or that person do if they were me?", its "Is this the best situation for me personally, and if its not, how can I change it?". Saying I should be happy in a situation that personally doesn't fit for me just because its better than someone else's situation is absurd. Not to mention how incredibly subjective it is to say that one situation is "better" than another.

I felt this way as well.

Hit the freakin nail on the head imo.

Another thing I'll add is that there are no raises in poker like with other professions. In today's landscape, unless you are or have the potential to be really world class, there is a ceiling, and its lower than most people think. Poker is not dead, nor will it ever be imo, but the games have gotten smaller and tougher. There are tons of guys in Vegas that used to play 25/50+ that play 2/5 or even 1/2 now. The games they used to play don't even exist anymore. Not only are they playing for lower nominal amounts, they're playing with money thats worth less due to inflation.

Compare this to other professions in which income often rises with inflation and you can get merit-based raises for sometimes doing the same amount of work, or maybe you have to work a bit more but the raise makes for a higher hourly. Then take potential benefits/pensions into consideration and the scale tips even further.

I've heard many young guys say that they can make more in poker than entry level jobs, even ones which require college degrees. While this is true, its pretty short-sighted as you must also take into consideration the future earning potential.

I'm only using this as a basis for comparison, since despite moving away from poker, I'm clearly not jumping in line for a traditional 9-5. The point to realize is that poker as a career has some key disadvantages that people should understand when making a decision on whether or not to pursue it full time.

Holy shyt this got crazy. Hopefully it was informative/enjoyable/thought provoking for everyone. I invite and look forward to any and all responses.

Sage advice from a seasoned pro.

To your points:

I am not unhappy now doing nothing due to medical issues.....and I wasn't unhappy for 10 yrs doing ecommerce when I did that.

I am 52 yrs old (older than dirt by most 2p2 members standards)

I have real world experience starting and maintaining a successful business....and I can tell you that in the initial couple of years if you think working more than 25 hours a week is abhorrent....it isn't for you.

When I talk about "most of the civilized world" I am speaking of just that the larger percentage of people....I would think you can agree that "most" people don't get their income working 25 hrs or less a week working from home.

I also know many people in the workforce that are near retirement age and still need to work a full week to cover their nut.


Look....I don't know your education or skill sets.....and I hope you find this miracle source of income that will allow you to invest less than 25 hrs a week and live the lifestyle you want....I really do.

As to why you would be doing the poker industry as a whole a favor by quitting? Simple....you are obviously miserable when you hit the felt and look upon it as drudgery.....I am guessing that equates to you not chatting up the producers and showing them a good time...and obvously you are a winning player and not a producer so you are not contributing to the poker economy ....so wouldnt the industry be a tiny bit better off without you there?...and wouldn't you be better off without the burden of having to be there?

I very much appreciated your candor in bringing the matter up for discussion and for the most part the back-and-forth has made me more aware of and appreciative of the challenges in the day-to-day life of a poker player. And, yes, it was indeed thought provoking.

I'm grunching here, as I haven't read the thread past this post, but I kinda take issue with the above being represented as 'agreeing with me.' I didn't really say any of that stuff, and certainly didn't mean anything I said to come off as harshly as this.

To be fair, I think that most live pros don't last because of the combined effects of a) not being as good/profitable as they think they are b) being bad money managers and c) not being disciplined enough to treat it like a real job. The ones who truly succeed suffer from none of these things to any great extent. Now, if we're talking about why otherwise solid/profitable live pros don't last, then I'm with you.

Also, re: volume, I work a full time job, have a family that I spend time with, and I have averaged a bit over 31 hours/week in live play starting 1/1/2011 (lost my data from before that). I'm doing that because I have a goal to be completely debt-free and living in a house in the country (on land I bought cash with 2013's poker income) by 7/1/2018. I would never suggest that I 'know what it's like' because I don't. Poker is not my only source of income. In fact, it's not near half; it works out to be roughly 21% of my net income. This means that if I got fed up and quit poker tomorrow, my family would be fine, so I don't have the pressure that a full time live pro has; I get that.

I'm merely saying that it's not completely out of line to suggest that work ethic might have relevance to the conversation. I bring that up not to call anyone lazy, so again, please don't think I'm hating on Cush here.

This whole time the point I've been trying (and failing) to make is this: I feel like a renewed dedication to getting where he wants to be post-poker might fuel the fire enough/rediscover lost work ethic for Taylor to focus on the destination rather than the journey, and therefore be happier/more satisfied playing even with increased volume. That's what I've been driving at.

It was never my intention to challenge the validity of Cush's feelings or emotions with regard to playing for a living. I only meant to try to suggest a possible path to overcoming his own internal resistance to playing more. If that was out of line, then I apologize.

Dear Will,

Have you ever played for a living?
Have you ever "forced" yourself to go to the casino because you think about thr money there?
Have you ever felt depressed after big winning days?
Have you felt people's animosity and jealousy toward you when you are winning and their smug satisfaction when you lose?
Have you ever heard about people having families and kids and watched them lose several thousands of dollars and think, how will their wife and kids be affected by a depressed father?
Have you ever seen the disgusting wastefulness in general of casino patrons?

This is part of the "ideal lifestyle" of people who play for a living.

I agree with everything you said in that post except this.

I can see how you might think this, but this couldn't be further from the truth. I am easily one of the happiest people in the casino and specifically make an effort to smile just to counteract the environment I'm in. Humans tend to mirror their environment though so this takes conscious effort to do, which is probably a reason why being in the casino wears on me so fast.

Chatting up with the "producers" is probably one of the few things I find enjoyable about the live game anymore. I engage in conversation whenever possible because the guys in the casino that can afford to lose can be pretty interesting people and I like talking to/learning from them. Not to mention it helps me to not be bored out of my mind. There are several frequently visiting rec players I'm on a very friendly basis with and a couple whom I have interacted with outside the casino. Most dealers at the V would probably say I'm one of the nicest people they know.

If losing in the poker game is the only way to be a contributor to the poker economy then yea I suppose I don't do that. Money aside, I'd certainly be better off without having to go so I also can't argue that.

lol this...shipping 9k+ for second last VDS series was one of the most devastating (at the time!) days for me so far this year.

Yea most can't make it for these 3 reasons. Then there are a bunch that don't last long term not because they couldn't cut it, but because they realize its not for them for other reasons. I'm in this camp. I don't really think of these people as not making it since by definition to be in that category you would have to prove first that you could make it. I think of these people as just getting out or moving on by choice. This could just be a defense mechanism or me spinning it in a positive light since its the category I see myself in. I certainly don't think I've failed (and even if I had I wouldn't mind), if I had to continue with poker I could, I just don't want to and am lucky enough to have options.

Thats pretty insane volume between your job and poker. I don't know if I'm capable of that but I certainly know its not something I want to do, though I certainly respect you for figuring out what it is you want and doing what you need to get there.

Nothing you said was out of line so don't worry there. I appreciate the responses you and others have given as they've made me think about things from some different angles, and reading and responding to them has been helpful.

As far as my work ethic I'll say this. I have an extremely strong work ethic, BUT, I'm very bad at doing things I don't want to do, so sometimes it looks like I'm lazy. If I want something I will work my arse off. It doesn't really feel like work since its what I want to be doing. However, if I don't want to do something I have a hard time putting in effort and it looks like laziness. I can do the things I don't want to but truly have to do without too much problem. But if I don't have to do it and I don't want to do it, you can pretty much forget about it.

Thus I don't see myself being able to push through with poker by reminding myself of where I want to be post-poker. I feel like I'm done with poker, so in that sense I'm exactly where I want to be post-poker.

Again, you were not out of line and I appreciate your responses.

DDT, I've worked jobs where you have to work 50-90 hrs/wk and you really can't compare these jobs to poker. Playing poker for a living is such a mind ****, you have no idea until you actually do it full time. It is SO MUCH EASIER just doing it part time. I've done both, and the stress level is just not comparable at all when you have a job on the side.

Just as a reference point, I've met thousands, if not tens of thousands of professional poker players while I've lived here that play my stakes - that's people that could beat this game for a good clip. The number of people that have lasted more than 3 years is less than 100. The number of people who are still around when I moved to Vegas in 2007 is probably somewhere around 20. That's out of thousands.

Anyway, don't want to derail cushlash's thread too much, but I think most pros would agree with the stuff he's been saying lately re: poker lifestyle. It is way tougher than you think, the numbers alone of successful pros that last more than a few years backs that statement up. It's not that out of tens of thousands of people, all of them have poor work ethic, it's that playing for a living for an extended period of time is extremely punishing and difficult.

.

ddt....I wasnt trying to put words in your mouth and I apologize if it came off that way

What I wrote is what I felt and I will own it.