An article about the surveys on Vital Vegas website:

https://vitalvegas.com/

I guess the chickens are finally coming home to roost. If you get one of these surveys, make sure you let them have it.

Many of us on 2+2 (and others elsewhere) have been complaining about resort fees, parking fees, worse gambling odds, worse comps, etc. for years. Do they really need a survey to figure out why many of us are making fewer trips to Vegas? Well, if they listened to their customers, they'd already know the main reason. I've not been there for a couple of years and have no plans on attending anytime soon. And even worse for them, I've been advising others of the rip-off policies and suggesting them to avoid the place. And I'm sure many others are doing the same.

Good luck on trying to reverse the trend. It might take years.

Good **** them both
Nickel and diming people (the total opposite of comping them-which is done for psychological reasons) leaves a bad taste in their mouths.They can choke on their 6:5 blackjack as well.

Forbes, August 8, 2018:
Yes, most posters are aware of how you guys feel about resort fees and other types of nicling/diming.

But if you read Forbes' statement, you will see that the main issue is decline in convention attendance.

Conventioneers rarely pay out of own pocket for lodging, parking, etc., do generally not care about how the bottom line charge is broken down, but tend overall to spend vastly more money than casual tourists and regular hardworking gambler.

If decline in conventions is the main culprit in lowering overall revenue per room, the 'customer alienating fee structure' hypothesis is not supported by current changes in this metric.

Apparently Vegas does care about the average tourist if they're sending them surveys of why their attendance is down. The article cited a 12% decrease in gambling revenue in August year over year.

First, define conventioneer. I can think of three categories off hand. The first are attendees at an actual convention--that is a meeting of a nation-wide organization that happens annually or bi-annually for the purpose of deciding issues of importance to them (labor unions would fit here). Many times some or all travel, lodging and meals are picked up for the attendees. But the decision on whether or not to attend, and how many should attend, is frequently made by much smaller sub-groups who will foot the bill. And that decision is based on how much of their money they are willing to spend. In turn, the decision on how much to spend is frequently made by people who won't be attending themselves--the actual attendees being elected or appointed afterwards. There's not a lot of motivation to spend a lot of money on someone else's Vegas trip. Also, these sub-groups who foot the bill put pressure on the national group to find cheaper alternatives, or to rotate these conventions around the country, reducing the percentage of their conventions held in Vegas.

The second are organizations or corporate management who gather for training and information sharing. The expenses of these types of gatherings are mainly borne by the organization and attendance may be mandatory or encouraged. But these organizations would also like cheaper alternatives and may decide to rotate their gatherings around the country more often.

The third are trade shows (such as AES). The attendees at these foot the bills themselves. But many of them can write the expenses off as business expenses, which reduces their exposure to higher expenses. This group may be the least effected of the three. Attendance at some of these events is very high and Vegas is probably one of the few cities that can handle it.

As I see it, convention attendance is effected by the excessive nickling and dining too. What are other reasons you see?

To be fair, I think the primary reason for revenue fall off is the economy. The stock market and the well-to-do are doing well, but the average working stiff isn't. And Vegas doesn't seem to care about that segment of the population, even though it's the largest by far.

are the conventions going elsewhere? what is the reasoning there?

yeah average worker isn't making that much relative to housing etc so maybe less people going to conventions.

Sadly, you are wasting your time with these surveys, they won't change a thing. I have multiple decades experience with Corporate America and the surveys only vilify the workers.

Policy changes come from above, sure, but when the survey tells the bosses that resort fees are the reason people aren't coming they don't interpret that as resort fees are bad, it gets interpreted that the frontline did a poor job of explaining the value to the end consumer of the resort fee and that is why they don't like resort fees.

Ownership and upper level execs have never had a bad idea, only ideas that were not implemented successfully by the front line.

Many businesses are cutting back on every cost imaginable. Skype, in some instances, has replaced conventions. Cheaper destinations in some cases and in a lot of cases they still go to Vegas, just for fewer days.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/busine...away-from-ces/

My personal experience is that despite reasonably healthy revenues the past ten years overall, the big resorts do not seem to me to be reinvesting in the product for the customers. Stayed at Bellagio this summer for 4 days for WSOP and was really put off by the worn down feeling. Room was dull. Small televison, batteries in remote worn down. In the casino and public areas the carpets are blah, the glass doors smudged. Old gum crusted on floors leading in and out of the hotel to the parking lot. Pool area was largely unattended. Plastic cups with a little beer and cigarette butts in them lay there in the walkway around the pool for the half hour or so we were down there. No employee to be seen past the bored looking lifeguard. No service there at all.

How does this happen to a supposed resort? Just at every level it felt like they did not care. And it used to be that despite the crowds they never let you feel like they were overwhelmed. Now, you feel processed.

Vegas has always been about getting your money. But they made you feel excited and lucky to have the experience. Now, they still seem to want my money, but view my presence during that process as an annoying expense to them.

#makevegasfunagain

As an annual Vegas trade show attendee (small biz owner) I go to one of the largest trade shows in LV and I can tell you what growing consensus is among the middle America types, like myself.

We all know that “cheap” Vegas was gone a long time ago but that nostalgic idea hung around for a long time. I still here older people who haven’t been in 10-20 years talk about it like it’s still a real thing. People finally realized it was getting more expensive but the idea of “hey it’s a business trip and we can make a vacation out of it....what’s the problem spending a little more money since I’m taking my wife and it’s a getaway.” But things didn’t stop getting more expensive and now middle aged, middle America types seem to be getting squeezed out because of the ever growing ridiculous costs.

Example: What was the lure of Vegas to the average every day person 40 years ago? (Affordable) gambling, cheap good food, cheap alcohol and affordable lodging. Most all of those are very hard to find outside of Downtown. What Vegas was built on is gone, no one should be surprised that less people are going. Let’s also not forget that casinos are now all over the US and while they aren’t all known for loose slots and generous comps, they are a much better bargain for the everyday lowroller.

The LV casinos have clearly shown that they are trying to market themselves as cool and hip to the 20-something crowd with money (or a credit card) by spending so much promoting the night club and day club experience. The average mom and pop in their late 30’s-70’s isn’t interested in that scene, especially because of the expense. But everyone wants to go to LV and have some drinks right? Well $12-$25/each is just an insult, especially when a lot of these drinks are about as good as a $3 well drink at happy hour in the rest of the country. Even if they are good, not everyone has $200/night for drinks with their wife.

And food? Yes Vegas has some amazing food but again, not everyone has the money for a $500 meal and eating a “cheap” $20 hamburger gets old too. I’ll never forget one time when a wealthy buddy half-jokingly told me after a LV trip with his wife, “I was so glad to get to the airport on the way home to find some affordable food.”

So all the Vegas casino CEO’s and board members can sit around wondering where everyone went but they can walk across the floor of their own casino and look at the price of food, drinks and the table stakes and then spend a week in Everytown USA and if they can’t see the problem, there is no hope.

Vegas is the ultimate bait and switch. What it was built on....what made it a destination city...it’s all gone.

There is much truth, and much sadness in this post.

Vegas chairmen should take notes from the 2p2 forums.

Vegas Casinos have done what every corporation in the country has been doing. Bastardizing capitalism to squeeze every single penny out of people they can with little to no regard for customers. Short term greed is the driving force behind this. Of course if they can make it long term they will, but Vegas has more competition now and may not be able to sustain it.

I’ve never been a big pit game player, mainly poker, but what little I did play in the pits has almost gone to zero due to the odds changing. I’ve been to Vegas twice this year. Once solo back in January, and another on my guys annual March madness trip. I am personally over Vegas at the moment. For the first time in 10+ years I am not planning on a trip for March Madness or any other trip there in the foreseeable future. I can afford the current pricing, but I am not seeing the value anymore. My poker appetite has also declined and I’m sure that is also a contributing factor.

Just have to become semi-competent at limit hold'em, and then vegas drinking is cheaper than drinking in a minnesota dive bar.

Hopefully this was sarcastic.

Conventions are set years in advance - the American Chemical Society decided to drop Vegas from the rotation in the early-90s, citing increasing costs. It didn't take effect until the late 90s or early 2000s, leading people to causally link it with whatever changes happened at that time. The convention drop now is more likely a product of the post-recession backlash against corporate Vegas vacations than against parking fees implemented in the past two years.

People here are right that Vegas has become too expensive for conventions, but convention organizers don't give a **** about their attendees. A 5% increase in the price per square foot of the convention hall matters way more than a 5% increase in room rates.

Finally, lol at people who still focus on gambling revenue. The proportion of revenue from gaming has dropped every year for 20+ years - sometime in the 2000s, nongaming surpassed gaming; by now, I'm sure that executives would (rightly!) trade a 10% drop in gaming for a 5% increase in nongaming.

I am totally serious when I say that 2p2ers should pool their money together and open a 2p2-approved casino (or buy enough stock in a chain to implement change). Be right on the Strip, with free parking and super cheap rooms, $3 blackjack and craps, a giant oversized poker room with low rake and no promos. Because then people can see how well it does compared to Sheldon Adelson's "JK Gambling is Evil" casino empire and see who does better from a corporate standpoint.

Don't get me wrong, I wish Vegas could revert to the past as well. Probably the late 90s, just as nice resorts were going up but before the costs of funding those resorts caught up with the corporate entities that wanted them.

fyp

Your post has a lot of truth to it and that trend with continue or even accelerate but just blaming Corporate America is too easy.

In the not too distant future, minimum wage on the West- and Northeast coast will be higher than the median individual income in states like Mississippi or Arkansas. Vegas markets to people with disposable income and while there are obviously plenty of rich people in 'Middle America', the widening wage gap is a major issue.

It's more basic than that.

People don't like being taken advantage of.

And they avoid it.

Another reason customers are dwindling could be that Baby Boomers (some of Vegas' best gambling customers) are going to retire or have already done so, and simply don't have the money to blow they used to have. You can always recover from a big loss if your 25 to 50 but when you're over 60 a big loss can be devastating.

It's also generational. Our parents had to go to Vegas or Atlantic City to gamble. That generation may still continue to go to Vegas, albeit less frequently, because it's habit. They still enjoy a few and dwindling aspects of Vegas. Yea, resort and parking fees suck. But they go every year or so as habit.

The young kids today don't know old vegas. They probably treat the whole vegas trip as a splurge and pay no mind to cost. They can split a room with 6 friends and don't use a car, so resort and parking fees have minimal effect. If they tacked on a dance club fee to the admission, they'd freak out though. $50 entry+$18.50 fee (but you have complimentary use of all rotary phones in the building and daily newspaper) would not go over well.

My generation that is in between - we will go less and less to vegas since we'll just go to the local casino. We don't like the nickeling and diming.

"It's also generational. Our parents had to go to Vegas or Atlantic City to gamble. That generation may still continue to go to Vegas, albeit less frequently, because it's habit. They still enjoy a few and dwindling aspects of Vegas. Yea, resort and parking fees suck. But they go every year or so as habit."

I think this is a really good point. In the "I'm not going to Vegas as much thread" there were a lot of us older people who noted it was more of a habit than anything else, picked up when we were younger and continued now. A lot of us either avoid (parking fees) or ignore (resort fees) because financially it just isn't enough to make a difference to us - but when I was 23 and going to LV with a tiny bankroll it sure as hell would have - now people have options closer to home without that crap, and they never get in the LV habit.

MM MD

Yep - I'm hanging it up next year and my wife and I have already discussed that out 3 trips to LV are going to be 1. When you're on a fixed income, even if that amount is healthy, it changes your outlook....

MM MD

They shouldn't be sending surveys out. They should continue with their current model and raise prices even higher on drinks, food, shows, nightclubs, resort fees and parking fees. There's an increased-revenue 2018 4th quarter for you, MGM and Caesar's!

That's the problem with Vegas becoming too corporate. Business executives (many who are not gamblers at heart) try to keep their jobs and make their bonuses by increasing profits in the short run and don't really care much what happens to the corporation in the long run. That's why some properties deteriorate---executives cut corners on maintenance and staffing.