Yea, I get the fact that they have to ensure a safe playing environment and would rather err on the side of caution.

I definitely don't intend to assume the role of unfairly wronged victim, but rather state all the facts to illustrate that no cheating occurred or was ever intended, apologize for breaking their rules and promise to refrain from anything that could be misconstrued as cheating.

I'm not sure what I said that would lead you to say that I have sh***y attitude. I think I've only stated and explained things in detail as they happened to show that no cheating occurred or was ever intended.

Do you think this would be allowed at a double deck blackjack table? Full, fun table, we are all drinking and having a good time, I'm on a really bad streak and you say - hey, lets swap first cards face down without looking and the whole table agrees.

If the whole table agrees, there is probably nothing wrong with it right?

****ing seriously?

"But the cards were face down." "No but seriously we weren't cheating the cards were face down". "But I don't understand why they wouldn't allow it because the cards were face down". No one misunderstood the fact that the cards were face down. We get it. It doesn't matter. The casino said it's not kosher. You're being a brat.

Dont forget, the whole table agreed.

It appears you don't want to contribute anything constructive, but just want to drive home some point, but ok, I'll play.

You are missing a key component, which is the casino! Being that blackjack is played against the house, all players agreeing to us switching cards is irrelevant as the house has to agree to it as well.

Poker isn't played against the house and the house doesn't risk to lose money by all players agreeing to switch cards.

Again, I get that what I did is frowned upon or against the rules. Even though I'm unclear what EXACT rule it is. I'm guessing it's something along the lines of only the dealer being allowed to deal the cards and players only being allowed to play the cards received by the dealer. Either way, it doesn't matter what the exact rule is, I realize I messed up and got banned for it. I don't intend to do anything even remotely resembling cheating again and just wanted to come on here to get some advice from someone who may have been faced with something similar or works in the industry and would know the best way to attempt to get the ban rescinded.

Whats that school they opened up at the end of zoolander?

OP, fair play to you. You've come to 2+2 and clearly explained exactly how it was.
Normally you'd be bombarded with replies of 'there's got to be more to it than this'.

You told the whole story and it hasn't been questioned.

The unfortunate thing is that you've done something, that although completely innocent, comes across as incredibly shady to a bystander who isn't aware of the circumstances i.e security.

As has been said before, this is something for a home game, not a live casino environment.

Good luck in your endeavours to get reinstated, but I fear that you are fighting a losing battle.

You guys really think this kind of stuff never happens at the higher games?

So stuck on your ways and never able to see the value provided by situations like these

Poker is entertainment to recreational players, we need to do anything we can to keep them happy and playing, remember that every time a whale folds to your river bet because you guys are just like every other hated angry reg

Edit: I like the way Pete worded everything above

Do those of you arguing that the punishment fits the crime believe that these same things don't happen in Iveys Room with no consequences on a regular basis? It's a joke he was banned at all. He should be flagged and warned imho

Edit: looks like NCJ beat me to the point.

Lol it's not even close to the worst attitude someone can have.


That's because most people act like they did nothing wrong at all, or act like they did something really insignificant. And they act like they have no clue why they were banned which is really hard to believe. Then they seem to suddenly remember stuff when the responses ask for more details.

You're seriously messing with the integrity of their room. It's not a home game, don't treat it like it is. If I sat down and saw that I would call the floor immediately. I have no problem with them giving you a lifetime ban.

I wouldn't know what happens in there because I've never played in there. Also, will people playing in that room be held to the same standard?

I've seen enough accusations of cheating from paranoid players that I wouldn't want to do stuff like the OP just did.

However, assuming the story the OP told is true, I think the ban is a joke. A lifetime ban from all MGM properties over this? I think a stern warning is sufficient. Or if they ban him, the ban should be far less severe (but then again they might just give everyone a lifetime ban).

Nowhere in the OPs write-up did he express any remorse for the fact that he probably got the dealer fired and unable to get another casino job again. Makes me less sympathetic.

Thank you for your post and well wishes! All the best to you and yours!


LOL!!!! I actually had to Google the name of the school, since it has been a while that I saw Zoolander and couldn't remember! Nice one!

I'm sure they happen in Ivey's Room, higher games and other casinos. I've seen these type of things quite often in Europe, but it doesn't take away from the fact that I broke the rules at Aria.

NCJ is spot on when it comes to keeping recs happy and playing. There have been countless times I've gotten calls on the river prefaced with "I think you have me, but I don't mind giving YOU my money!" Recs aren't total morons who don't recognize nits and/or guys who have a condescending attitude towards them which may make it more likely to fold vs them than someone that is giving or appearing to give wild action. That is all I was attempting to do, keep the dude happy and playing!

Er7, thanks for your post and feel free to send your thoughts regarding a warning and being flagged to Aria's poker room management! lol All the best to the west coast!

I wrote the initial post looking to describe what transpired that night and not what may or may not have happened.

Needless to say, if in fact anyone was fired over this, I wouldn't be happy to know that my actions played a part in that, but I also wouldn't be the sole source of that firing, if in fact that even occurred.

Agreed and definitely don't do what I did! lol

Happened just as I described! Yea, they very well just might give everyone a lifetime ban for simplicity's sake and to not tie up additional resources or manpower to research each individual situation to determine if a lower ban is warranted.

It's obvious it's a joke but you still cannot do things like this. The security has to take these matters very seriously to prevent any and all collusion.

The perception of a poker room that allows this kind of thing, is going to be negative. Tons of business lost because shady stuff is being allowed in their room vs. one casual, ****** getting banned for life. I think the casino made the right decision.

Tacitly.

I don't care if the Pope descended on that card room and sprinkled holy water on that deck.

yeah this seems really harmless to me and super nitty that people have a problem with it. Also an extreme overreaction re: the punishment - you were warned and then you stopped. At most, this should constitute a 24 hr ban. I mean Sammy Farha regularly used to spit on dealers and he wouldn't even get kicked out for a day. The guys in Bobby's room were literally making up prop games to bet on while they played weird mix games. Nothing ever happened to those guys, and that's how they kept the whales entertained. There are guys who we know are cheats that play every day, and this guy gets a lifetime ban for screwing around a bit at the table?

Poker is supposed to be fun. I've been at a lot of tables where the whole table agrees to play 7/2, run a hand dark for x amount, show one card, etc.

OP, I would try to call the Aria poker room floor or direct them to this thread. Adam is usually there during the day, just call the room and ask to speak to him. The casino security generally has no idea wtf is going on with poker, and the poker supervisors can help a lot in spots like these.

This made me smile! Thanks for your post!

Thanks for the post, man! I'll give calling the poker room and asking to speak to Adam a shot! Any idea if they have someone on this forum that I could direct to this thread? That way they could read the OP when they have some time compared to me attempting to cram all of this in their ear over the phone.

i was sitting in that game with you. In your OP I missed that you said 'this past November' and as I was reading it I was thinking that it was a ridiculous coincidence that I personally witnessed this exact scenario, at the Aria, in a BigO game, but it was last year.

Anyway, here are a couple of points from someone who at least some of you know personally (me), who was an objective observer and has no skin in the game. Of, and for the OP, if you doubt that I was there, I can tell you which table you were at, and which seats you and the other guy were in.

1. I was in the 1 seat, and the first swap that the OP referred to was not noticed by me, or any of the other guys on my end of the table. If the guy in the 7 seat noticed, he didnt' say anything.

2. The second time the OP referred to, when they were called out on it, it is true that a) nobody thought there was any cheating going on and b) everyone else knew that this can't happen. I actually said the words "this isn't a kitchen table game; we have to follow rules."

3. None of the players called the floor. One of the guys on your side off the table (maybe 7 seat) saw it and (as you can imagine he was surprised) said something like "Hey, you can't, like, do that!" He told the dealer, and the dealer caled the floor. At no point was any player at the table upset that is was happening, but all agreed that it had to stop for all of the obvious reasons.

4. Above, you said a few times that you weren't sure what exact rule you were breaking. Well, the floor guy told you in no uncertain terms that even though everyone agreed that there was no ill intent, that they would not allow it to continue, AND (the important part) it was a gaming violation. That means that if they do allow it, they can get in trouble.

The gaming violation comes into play because in order to spread a particular game, the casino has to define the exact rules of the game, and those rules are approved by the gaming people. Since there is no provision in the rules for swapping hole cards with your table mate in those rules, it is a gaming violation for it to happen in that game.

5. I guess I left before you got the hook, because you were both still at the table when I left. I didn't stay long, because the annoying guy in the 4 seat wanted to run every f-ing pot 3 times, then stand over the table and bark out who got which split, and was never right. I think we played like 5 hands/hour in that game. Maybe you remember me...after a few min of this I said "just so you guys know, I am 100% never running any pot I'm involved in more than once. Now I'm going to go smoke about 12 cigarettes; someone yell to me when this pot is resolved."

ANYway, you seemed like a nice enough guy, and I do not, and never did believe that you guys were cheating in any way. If you think it might help you for a random 3rd party who was there to attest to your side of the story, I'd be happy to write an email or whatever.

I could be remembering the wrong timeframe, but I _think_ you and Ivin stopped by there while I was in that game that night. Dunno...I could be remembering a night the previous June as well.

Anyway...see you in Nov?