There was a true noob at my table last year, first time in years blah blah blah.

The noob wanted to raise preflop but didn't know how much he had to or could raise. The dealer tried to explain how because the big blind was $3, minraise was $6, but two regs cut off the dealer mid sentence and whined about coaching. The regs and dealer got into a heated argument which ended when the dealer offers to call the floor and the regs decline. I said to the noob - a little louder than normal conversation because when I started the sentence the regs and dealer were shouting, but as soon as they stopped, it seemed like I was the one shouting - "Never mind the idiots. Bet whatever you want, but it has to be at least $6."

For the rest of the session, the regs yelled at anyone who attempted to give any sort of help. How far forward should I push my cards when I fold? No coaching! How much can I rebuy for? No coaching! Anyone except for me, that is - apparently my unbridled disdain for their behavior rendered me immune. Or maybe that I was the only other person at the table besides them with a sub-50 VPIP qualified me to talk. Shrug.

Noob was a huuuge donk (even his friend who was railing him laughed and asked him what he was doing) but a super nice guy. I pegged him for some tech millionaire (in retrospect, probably cryptocurrency given the timing) who didn't live in the US during the poker boom and was living out his Chris Moneymaker fantasy about 15 years too late. I left before the noob did, but we also got a stronger dealer who straight up told the regs to shut up, so hopefully the story has a happy ending.

And by happy ending I mean I hope he had fun because there was absolutely no way that guy was walking away with chips, even if he had all the luck in the world.

I’ve seen a lot of headphone wearing regs but maybe I’m lucky but it’s been years since I’ve seen one berate a fish. Most seem competent enough to not tap the glass and keep there mouth shut. Maybe an occasional eye roll or look to another reg when they get coolered by a noob.

I am a recreational player and head to Vegas twice a year. 1/3 player for most part. I jumped into a 2/5 game a couple of trips ago while waiting for a 1/3 seat. Horrible experience getting berated about my play. I was up $200 ish and left when my name got called for 1/3. Their goal should have been to keep me in that game instead of chasing me away. Why would you ever talk down to a guy about how he plays ?

Here's the problem with all this. The pros are stuck in a prisoner's dilemma.

Let's say there's a pool of 100 pros who frequent Cardroom X. Cardroom X starts dying out because any reg who comes there gets destroyed by the headphone nits who berate them as they lose.

The pros all get together and agree: we won't seat change, we won't wear headphones, and we'll be nice to newbies. And 95 of the pros do so.

However, the other 5 pros seat change, they wear headphones and berate losers which somehow makes them play better, and they start being the biggest winners in the room. What choice do the other 95 pros then have?

It's not the pros who need to police this behaviour. It's the dealers and the rooms. Ban headphones, ban seat changes, and penalize abusive behaviour. Problem solved.

You can't ban nor should any of those 3 things be banned. Most people that seat hop I just laugh at. I can understand moving once for position or you dont like sitting in the 3 seat bc your eyesight isnt that great. But constantly hopping around the table....I see very few people doing it and I'm not sure that the people doing it know why they are doing it so I really dont see that being too big of an issue.

As far as headphones go....that really doesnt seem to be a huge problem as usually I only see 1 person on average at the table w/headphones.

Third, you are going to get all types into a poker room, and that includes people that are human garbage. I guess the room could talk to the player for harrassing one of their customers.

But I really dont see any of those 3 being the main culprit. I think it's simply that people are less inclined to communicate with other people than say they were 15 years ago. Going for hours at a table with nobody talking is kinda unsettling. And like I've said in the past, I'm as guilty as the next guy of not attempting to strike up a conversation. But the time sure does pass by a lot quicker and generally speaking, I have a better time playing poker when talking at the table. So I think it would be to everyones advantage to have some sort of communication going on while playing.

Well said sir.

LOL 100 pros per 1 fish

How does wearing headphones or berating newbies help the pros make more money? All it does it contribute a negative atmosphere to casual players and fish. It's not a prisoner's dilemma because you don't gain anything by doing those. It's straight up -EV for everyone.

And seat changing is not a big deal, as most noobs will never notice it unless you are super obnoxious about it.

The point is that pros have NOTHING to lose by being social and creating a friendly game and they will immensely help the longterm viability of poker while in exchange maybe they have to get outside their comfort zone to interact with people.

The people wearing headphones are probably the ones that will do the least amount of talking if headphones aren’t allowed. Some of them wear headphones because they really don’t want to talk to other poker players and can’t stand anyone else at the table. Taking away their headphones won’t change that; it will just make them hate their opponents even more.

Why can’t you ban those 3 things? Not saying I want that to happen, but it’s definitely possible.

The WSOP had a no-headphone rule in the past starting on day 2 of all events. So that’s obviously possible.
Seat changes happen at the discretion of the dealer/floor anyway. You don’t have a god-given right to seat change.
Abusive behavior isn’t tolerated in other parts of the casino. Mocking another blackjack player for suboptimal play will get you in trouble immediately. If a poker room wanted to stop players from berating others, they could certainly do that.

because they're idiots.

even worse is when they berate people and make the game miserable and then when the guys leaves "hey where are you going?"

probably somewhere they could actually have fun.

seat changing isn't a huge deal with total noobs bc the noobs don't understand why they're changing seats.

it is a huge deal with rich fun players in higher stakes games. they're not stupid and i've seen many leave because of the constant seat changes by some players.it's parasitic and pathetic and terrible for the game.

I can't think of much besides poker (or I guess whatever game is on TV) that I would want to chat with most regs about.

Steve has the right idea. Banning headphones isn't going to turn the table into a delightful social event. It will turn a passively unpleasant experience into an actively unpleasant one.

I think there's a pretty high crossover between people who play lots of poker and people who would rather do almost anything besides get into dozens of small-talk chats a week.

I’m a rec and almost always wear headphones at the table precisely because I don’t want to hear what usually is inane conversation ranging from bad jokes to constant poker talk. Reliving every hand after the fact, including hypotheticals to extend the discussion, is unbearable blather to me.

If I’m playing with friends it’s different, but if I’m in Vegas I prefer to mind my own business and play.

I understand everyone's frustration about the current state of poker. It certainly isn't the same as when I started in 2013. HOWEVER, before we start antagonizing nits, tablet grinders and people who choose to exercise seat/table selection, let's think about WHY they're there.

1) nits - they are probably break even players who do not like to take risks. Some of them are there to try to make money. Some of them are there just to get away from their families. Some of them are there to maintain their diamond status and get free food *cough* Caesar's nits *cough*.

2) tablet grinders - most of these guys are nits. But they are there to try to make money.

3) people who choose to exercise seat/table selection - these guys are definitely trying to make money.

I think we can agree that all three groups of players are bad for the game. But do they owe you anything? No they don't. The nit is certainly not gonna want to splash around "for the good of the game". The tablet grinder is likely anti-social/socially awkward and the table is probably better off if he shuts up anyways. And the seat changer...they're changing seats and tables cause they know it will maximize their EV. If they're doing it mindfully and in a player pool that is big enough that people don't notice, they'd be silly to not do it.

I'm sure if everyone splashed around to give action, talked and never seat/table changed poker would be more fun and softer. Sure you can say that people in these three groups should do things that are not max EV so that poker is more fun and softer. But why should they? Poker is a selfish activity. Humans are naturally selfish and look out for themselves. Whoever brought up Prisoner's Dilemma knows what's up. That basically sums up why winning players do what they do and don't do what OP wants them to do in order to remain winning players.

Of course, certain poor conduct behaviours are inexcusable. For example, berating a fish, crying nonstop about losing a pot and not shutting up about it for an entire orbit. If you look carefully though, it's not just winning players doing these things. FISH DO THEM TOO ALL THE TIME! I think poker players are naturally biased and more hard on winning players and act like winning players have a "responsibility" to make the game good when in reality the only responsibility is to not make the game bad. I don't wear headphones ever but I'm on my phone all the time when the table talk is boring and there's nothing wrong with doing that.

I agree that berating a player is stupid and anyone doing it is probably not a good pro, because that is a huge mental leak in ones game. From my experience, most players who do this are just reg fishes, the pros in my casino never does this.

I have no idea why headphones are a huge problem here as some in the thread has suggested banning them. I wear headphones all the time because I enjoy music, even when not at the table.

I think it’s all about how you handle yourself. You can still be friendly, turn the volumn down to chat it up once in a while and go back to grind mode. Most of the recs at my casino give me fist pump when I sit down even tho they know I’m a pro.

Once a rec told me he likes playing with me cause I never get mad when he puts a bad beat on me, which he says he remembered doing it multiple times so I reallly think it just comes down to how you act, not in the headphones or gears that scare the fish away

Good post - about turning the volume down occasionally and chatting a bit.

I'm old enough (sadly) to have been playing poker in Gardena (Lowball FTW!!) in the 1970's. Shockingly, people managed to sit for several hours without earphones/smart phones/tablets and play poker. Generally, there were a couple of people at the table I didn't care to talk with. So I didn't. Seemed to work out OK....To be clear, there were probably nights where I didn't say 10 words to the other players - I'm pretty introverted. But I also didn't slow the game down/miss action/piss the other player off because I was so engrossed in something else, which is one of the main problems, I think.

MM MD

Me too, Hobbes.

Just play when it's your turn and don't be a ****, not that hard.

First of all, I'm not hitting the tables without my backpack. It makes my day more manageable by an order of magnitude; holding water, a charger, a book or newspaper, a change of shirt, deodorant, gum, and a light jacket--some of these things make life more pleasant for my table mates.

I will chat with anyone who's interested in talking about anything excepting politics and advanced strat. I'm an introvert, but I took this job in part to come out of my shell a bit after working in a 3-person office for 12 years.

If I spot a new player at the table, I will be the first to offer friendly help without being patronizing, if they seem to want it. I'll give them the rundown on chopping blinds, how the straddle works, what the promos are and how best to earn them, and so forth. It's just good business to help plant some new trees while you're clearing out the timber.

I cater to players who want to see a cheap flop and play poorly post-flop, so my idea of being friendly to the fish involves adopting a tight-passive, never-iso preflop style and out-playing them post-flop.

I'm not much of a talker, but I like to listen to people and I continually ask questions to try and get people to talk. I don't wear headphones. I only look at my phone when I can't start a conversation.

The action junkies who want to play big pots aren't huge fans of me, but the bad regs (I'm not based in Vegas) who come in and continually leak money without ever being stacked in a big pot seem to enjoy playing with me and would rather lose to me than to the other guys.

I never whine about bad beats or losing big pots to the point where I am very conspicuously disciplined and never noticeably tilted. As in, people talk about how it doesn't bother me and it might make them more reluctant to play a big pot because I come off as a hyper-competent poker player even though I never talk strategy or berate players for bad play.

i couldn't disagree more with this entire post.
you're there to make money- good. you can be a nit and still be fun,funny etc and good for the game. if you're going to take something (money) out of the game leave something in it.

selfishly if they make the games more fun for the fish they will make more money.

in the short run sure maybe by being seat hopping scum they'll make a little more money. in the long run it chases people off (especially at higher stakes games) and you make less money.


as for the bolded- that's exactly what they need to be doing.
do some fish cry about bad beats? sure. but fish don't ruin the games the way so many regs do.and theyre fish. they're dumping piles of money. don't hold them to the same standards as regs.

a table full of people on headphones is terrible for the game.
at least you're not berating people.

I never have understood these people. I guess it's because I have always hustled and I had to win in every exchange. 100% I had to win. The way I found to do it was to make the other person in the exchange win too.

If it's at the poker table, I want to win your money. I want you to win by enjoying playing with me. I'm going to laugh, kid around, make it fun for you to play at my table. Do I win every time, no. Am I going to try to liven up a table with a bunch of nits? Nope.

I don't go to casinos nearly as often because I see the same faces sitting together at the same higher limit tables. Why? Because they have run off all the action. The casino is loaded with suckers who want to gamble and have fun losing money. They are dropping 1,000s and enjoying themselves.

Their money would last longer at the poker tables. Right? So, why don't they try the game? Because you take all the fun out. But you are a pro, you know not to play K7 UTG. They don't because they look pretty. Wouldn't you rather play them who has $1,000 to drop having fun playing poker than that same bunch you play with every day?

It ain't rocket science. I create fun tables. I win. I come back. I lose. CYA.

This is what happens when you continue to vote for Republicans who repeatedly pass legislation that restricts your freedoms. The ONLY reason this is a problem is because the United States government decided to legislate financial transactions in the gaming world, essentially making online poker illegal. The introverts lost their place to play.

Party of individual freedom and personal responsibility? Puh-lease. Thanks Bill Frist you MOFO. Eat a d**k.

Again, I have zero responsibility to make the game good. My job is to not make the game bad. Of course I wouldn't mind naturally making the game good by being pleasant, conversational and not anti-social. Or simply doing things like NOT whining about losing or being socially awkward and pissing off the entire table with annoying, uninteresting small talk cause someone on 2+2 said to not be anti-social. I will not go out of my way to make the game good because that usually comes at my expense.

And seat hopping scum? If you're being an idiot and doing it five times a session sure. But I'm not gonna pass up getting position on a whale or pass up an opportunity to DENY someone who never folds position on me (running away from being handcuffed on his right) if I haven't been seat changing actively.

In case I didn't fully explain this concept the first time, the games are the way they are because while it's collectively beneficial if every reg gives up some edge, it's not individually beneficial unless EVERY reg or at least the majority of the regs do so. I'm sure you've heard of the concept of a Nash equilibrium. Bash me all you want. The games are how they are because of that simple concept and if you want to disadvantage yourself cause you think you're making the game good while most regs including the white knights ITT are looking out for themselves, go ahead.