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Old 05-12-2017, 02:22 PM   #1
mrducks
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3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

It seems that poker evolves and sometimes a new idea comes up and sticks and sometimes it doesn't stick. I remember the MAP (multi action poker) games at Aria and how that quickly went away. But now I saw Bellagio running a 3 blind game in their POTS live stream.

Do they run 3 blind games regularly? Any of this at the lower limits of 1/3 and 2/5? (So 1/3/6 and 2/5/T). Do any of the smaller rooms run 1/2/5? Is there anywhere where they have a three blind game on the strip?

It seems like this would be a great way to spice up NL games and at the lower levels, tourists would get more wild pots (like in omaha games which are starting to get popular), and grinders would get more action to maximize their profits.

Will this be the next big thing? Is it running anywhere outside of Vegas in the US at lower levels?
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Old 05-12-2017, 03:57 PM   #2
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

@mrducks:
I think the POTS, Bellagio manager, stated that they will only allow a 3-blind game for $5/$10 and higher, or the time collection games; not the lower stakes, raked games.
It seems that Neeme thinks having 3-blinds is a good change; he is always straddling.
I think that you are a pro, living in LV, so, you already know that this will create stack-size issues.
I also suppose that you already realize, bringing up this question invites the 'devolving' debate between straddle and 3-blind.
Have a good weekend on the felt.
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Old 05-12-2017, 05:26 PM   #3
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

3 blind SUCKS! It's common in NorCal so they can juice the pot enough to take a full $6 drop and still leave a couple bucks for the winner of the pot. Of course, they make the button cough up the dollar if the big and small blinds chop in Cali. If you're going to play/straddle every time you get the button then I guess it doesn't matter, but if you're the kind of player that occasionally likes to fold a garbage hand, it sucks.

No idea if Vegas allows a full 3-way chop pre.
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Old 05-12-2017, 06:32 PM   #4
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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Originally Posted by pig4bill View Post
3 blind SUCKS! It's common in NorCal so they can juice the pot enough to take a full $6 drop and still leave a couple bucks for the winner of the pot. Of course, they make the button cough up the dollar if the big and small blinds chop in Cali. If you're going to play/straddle every time you get the button then I guess it doesn't matter, but if you're the kind of player that occasionally likes to fold a garbage hand, it sucks.

No idea if Vegas allows a full 3-way chop pre.
I believe that they are talking about a different thing. Effectively a forced straddle UTG in current "2 blind" terms. So, instead of a 2-5 game, it is 2-5-10. No money on the Button.
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Old 05-12-2017, 06:56 PM   #5
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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3 blind SUCKS! It's common in NorCal so they can juice the pot enough to take a full $6 drop and still leave a couple bucks for the winner of the pot. Of course, they make the button cough up the dollar if the big and small blinds chop in Cali. If you're going to play/straddle every time you get the button then I guess it doesn't matter, but if you're the kind of player that occasionally likes to fold a garbage hand, it sucks.

No idea if Vegas allows a full 3-way chop pre.
The post above yours indicated it was only allowed in time games at the Bellagio, so the "drop" isn't effected. Don't know about chopping. Do pros chop in a time game?
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:24 PM   #6
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

Dunno, I've only played it once or twice and can't remember.
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:26 PM   #7
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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I believe that they are talking about a different thing. Effectively a forced straddle UTG in current "2 blind" terms. So, instead of a 2-5 game, it is 2-5-10. No money on the Button.
Gak, that's even worse. You have the worst possible position and have to cough up $2, and if it's a forced straddle, no chop opportunity.
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:13 PM   #8
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

Wouldn't a lot of the local 1-2 NL nits object to this? They are the type of players that hate playing short because they worry about the blinds coming around all the time, and think because they always have to pay the blinds that they will lose their money faster. I don't think they will like the idea of a game with 3 blinds at all (and they might fear shorthanded play even more).

This is especially true for grinders that get hours in for freerolls, comps, etc. because they prefer a game with little action so they can get the hours in without risking much.

In other words, some grinders don't want more action. I wouldn't be surprised if they favored a game with only 1 blind. Reminds me of the time when regulars in the 8-16 and 15-30 limit Venetians game convinced the room to make the blinds half of what they were. They argued that the lower blinds made the game less scary so more players would try it.

Someone might read this and think "Good chase away the nits," but with all the freeroll promotions around town, it seems like rooms keep trying to get these nits in their rooms. Even Venetian with the higher rake runs nit friendly promotions with their high hands promotions.

Last edited by Steve00007; 05-12-2017 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:23 PM   #9
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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Wouldn't a lot of the local 1-2 NL nits object to this?
Why just the nits?

Paul from Peoria comes to LV and wants to play some 1/2. Not 1/2/5. He doesn't buy that "it is really just a loose 1/2 game". He views it as a 2/5 game.
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:17 PM   #10
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
Why just the nits?

Paul from Peoria comes to LV and wants to play some 1/2. Not 1/2/5. He doesn't buy that "it is really just a loose 1/2 game". He views it as a 2/5 game.
What about a 1/1/2 game or a 1/2/3 game to keep the top blind at the lowest limit offered in town? I would say .50/1/2 but that would get annoying with the 50 cent pieces and dealers might get stiffed on tips where they only get 50 cents.

Tourists would still see this as a 1/2 or 1/3 game potentially.

Harrah's and Rio already run a 2/3nl game so adding the 1 in front of that would just juice up the game.
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:20 PM   #11
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

It seems that we have hit a wall with NL cash games where we need some innovation to spice things up. I just noticed that the Orleans in LV is running a limit free flop game. I don't know the details but I assume it just eliminates the round of betting preflop. This is smart for the casino as Orleans takes a $3 max rake already so they will hit $30 in a $3/6 limit game every pot anyway so why not speed up each hand by eliminating a round of betting?

By just betting on the flop, turn, and river, you will still hit the max rake while reducing the time of each hand and increasing the number of hands dealt. Casino profits and players get something new to play.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:26 PM   #12
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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Originally Posted by mrducks View Post
It seems that we have hit a wall with NL cash games where we need some innovation to spice things up. I just noticed that the Orleans in LV is running a limit free flop game. I don't know the details but I assume it just eliminates the round of betting preflop. This is smart for the casino as Orleans takes a $3 max rake already so they will hit $30 in a $3/6 limit game every pot anyway so why not speed up each hand by eliminating a round of betting?

By just betting on the flop, turn, and river, you will still hit the max rake while reducing the time of each hand and increasing the number of hands dealt. Casino profits and players get something new to play.
I don't understand how eliminating the pre-flop betting will cause the pot to reach the max rake amount more often. Seems to me fewer players will continue than would call a bet to see a flop. Perhaps at mid-stakes or higher where fewer players normally see a flop. But even then, I doubt it.
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:25 PM   #13
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

Huh? If you could limp and see a flop with a guarantee of no raise, you wouldn't play more hands?
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:04 PM   #14
George Rice
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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Huh? If you could limp and see a flop with a guarantee of no raise, you wouldn't play more hands?
Of course, in fact, you would play all hands. But no money would go in the pot. After the flop, all pocket pairs smaller than the board, suited connectors that missed, etc, wouldn't call the blinds or flop bets. But those same hands might have put money in the pot pre-flop had there been pre-flop betting.

Am I missing something about the betting structure here? For example, there is pre-flop betting (there are blinds, which you must call), but no raises?
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:15 PM   #15
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

I don't think that's how it works, the game is called "free flop" not "no raising preflop." I think it works as follows, everyone is dealt their two hole cards then the flop is dealt and only then does the action start to the left of the big blind, with the option to fold, call $3, or raise to $6.
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:47 PM   #16
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

3 blinds are great for the action at the table. I mean, if ppl were to play mathematically correct, the difference (5/10 to 2/5/10 or 2/5 to 1/2/5) prolly wouldn't be all that much. But people want to get something if they already have money invested, see flops etc. On the downside, yes, some nits will not want to play or much rather play "cheaper" nearby games, where they only have to pay twice a round. They don't understand that the difference in blinds is very small and that it is good for the game.
If you play 1/2/3 compared to 1/3, then the former is ofc a significantly bigger game, since you bloat the initial pot by 50%
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Old 05-16-2017, 03:06 PM   #17
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

Bellagio had 5/10/20 and 10/20/40 games, with at least the latter one running consistently for a couple of years.

I remember people telling me 10/20/40 often played significantly bigger than the regular 25/50 game in the high limit area.

Never seen a lower 3 blind game at Bellagio in the last couple of years.
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Old 05-16-2017, 03:49 PM   #18
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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Of course, in fact, you would play all hands. But no money would go in the pot. After the flop, all pocket pairs smaller than the board, suited connectors that missed, etc, wouldn't call the blinds or flop bets. But those same hands might have put money in the pot pre-flop had there been pre-flop betting.
There's going to be more random garbage that would have folded pre that would catch a piece, imo.
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Old 05-17-2017, 06:27 AM   #19
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

its very simple.

3 blinds games are great when most players are deep.

3 blinds games suck when everybody sits with 100ish bb and all of a sudden you are playing 50bb deep poker, yay.
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Old 05-17-2017, 07:40 AM   #20
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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3 blind SUCKS! It's common in NorCal so they can juice the pot enough to take a full $6 drop and still leave a couple bucks for the winner of the pot. Of course, they make the button cough up the dollar if the big and small blinds chop in Cali. If you're going to play/straddle every time you get the button then I guess it doesn't matter, but if you're the kind of player that occasionally likes to fold a garbage hand, it sucks.

No idea if Vegas allows a full 3-way chop pre.
3 blind games are great deep stacked.
higher games are time games anyway.
punish the nits!
plus this way when someone gets up misses their blinds they have to play all 3 blinds. much better than when the whole table agrees to straddle and some dirtbag wants to walk on his straddle half the time.
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Old 05-17-2017, 07:41 AM   #21
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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Gak, that's even worse. You have the worst possible position and have to cough up $2, and if it's a forced straddle, no chop opportunity.
again higher games in vegas are time games so why are you worried about chopping preflop?
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:26 AM   #22
George Rice
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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There's going to be more random garbage that would have folded pre that would catch a piece, imo.
I agree. But without the pre-flop bets and raising, I doubt most hands get to the turn with bigger pots than if there had been betting pre-flop. Also, players would quickly learn that a small piece of the flop is almost worthless in most spots when nine players saw the flop compared with 2 or 3 players seeing the flop.

One factor in the favor of your opinion is that there will be fewer chops, so in games where players frequently chop, the casino will probably make more money overall. This goes double for games that are shuffled by a dealer (instead of a shuffling machine).
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:49 AM   #23
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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Someone might read this and think "Good chase away the nits," but with all the freeroll promotions around town, it seems like rooms keep trying to get these nits in their rooms. Even Venetian with the higher rake runs nit friendly promotions with their high hands promotions.
You don't want to be the room that is the most attractive to those guys. Next thing you know you have the same 8 guys playing everyday and they run away anyone who might actually want to gamble.

Theres a difference between attracting some grinders and attracting people who will fold hands for $3 an hour in equity.
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Old 05-17-2017, 02:50 PM   #24
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

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again higher games in vegas are time games so why are you worried about chopping preflop?
Because I read the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Rice View Post
I agree. But without the pre-flop bets and raising, I doubt most hands get to the turn with bigger pots than if there had been betting pre-flop. Also, players would quickly learn that a small piece of the flop is almost worthless in most spots when nine players saw the flop compared with 2 or 3 players seeing the flop.

One factor in the favor of your opinion is that there will be fewer chops, so in games where players frequently chop, the casino will probably make more money overall. This goes double for games that are shuffled by a dealer (instead of a shuffling machine).
You don't play LHE. It's usually correct to go to the river if you catch the flop.
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:07 PM   #25
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Re: 3 Blind NL Games in Vegas

I for one am a strong proponent for the 3 blind movement. During the summer I may try and get a regular 3-blind 2/5/10 game going at a room that normally doesn't even run 2/5.
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