Nice post... good article!

Very helpful

Hey guys,

sorry if this question is basic.

What conditions would you offer for a 50k hands cash game stake if the stakee is expected to win 2bb/100? Rakeback is also around 2bb/100 and should somehow be taken into account. Conditions should be such that both sides have an incentive to enter the staking.

Thanks

Great post will use this knowledge for making any staking decisions I may make

hi all, i thinking to stake some people, and i want to make this as official as possible, so my questions:

# how the contract between stakee and backer should look like. Maby anyone got some kind of template and can send me?
# how contract signing works? is he need to print out the contract sign and then scan and email back? (we live in different countries)
# is it normal to ask for passport copy?

Very useful, helped me think about a few situations I didn't conjure up myself.

Could potentially land a great stake for live 500NL. I appreciate the good advice.

Good luck stakers and stakees!

How does live cash games staking deals usually works?

-How many hours we have to play before we split profits?
-Do we keep a part of the winnings in the bankroll to absorb the loses. Of the next ''contract''

im currently bankrolling a good player that just needs some guidance. i have no doubt she will be a big winner in the long run.

however, i am uncertain of the guidelines. although i want to help her out, there should be some certainty in the arrangement (nothing physical).

-whats the standard % I should be getting from profits?
-is it fair for the player being staked to breakoff from the banker once they've made enough profits? (ie. 50k turns into 100k, player decides to play with only profits, doesn't need initial 50k, but wouldn't have made the 50k to begin with if wasn't backed, etc.)
-for complete tournament staking, whats the standard %? 60/40 player?

Hi there,

-The most standard percentage would be 50%/50% in my own experience with cash games, not entirely sure if the same applies for tournaments. I depends on the risk you are taking just like Doug explained in his post.

-When I stake a player for cash games, I always agree upon an goal for instance 5k profit. After you can try to renegotiate a contract or to break apart. But i would highly suggest to set up a contract with terms and conditions and to honer that contract. When you do you don't have to talk about fair or not just about the rules of the contract.

Hope this explains your question.

Cheers

i have a question, whats the point in staking for cash games. i can see in tournaments where the buy in might be large. but whats the point in cash games. seems to me that you would be losing money if you have to split your profits.

When I look at subject from my own experience with staking players through the Europe poker academy (EPA) I can see the following reasons for cash game staking.

Bust: Player went bust or had such a downswing that he/she cannot play on the preferred blind level without risking his bankroll.

Low risk: I have players in the stable that find it more relax to play with someone else his money as bankroll because they find that they lose the aspect of playing with scare money.

Game level: Backers can see such potential in a certain player that they give him/her a chance of playing a higher level than that they were playing before, for example someone makes the jump from plo20 to plo50. Note that normally the player will still start at plo20 and needs to supply a certain range of hands played (ex: Hold'em manager data) in order to determine the skill level of the player, before the jump to plo50 will be financed.

Share of profits: When a players finishes a 50/50% contract (ex: wins 45 buyins) a new contract will be established with a more favorable win rate for the player. The player has proven him/herself and a lower risk factor can be calculated by the backer.

Coaching/training: Looking at my own stables another advantage arises, the player will have the chance to discuss hands daily with other players/backers/coaches in order to improve his game and discuss leaks of other players on the brand. The player will also be closely monitored through Skype, Team viewer sessions, and daily rebalancing. All with the intention to improve the game of the players and increase overall profits for both parties, it also creates a close relation which is needed for create sustainable relationships between the parties involved.

Hopefully this answers your question.

Cheers,

Dagmar

i guess if i was interested in taking shots at a bigger buy in, this would make some sense, but personally i would feel worse about losing someone elses money then my own, and i would probably play worse

I live in central florida and was wondering where I could find some stakers for live cash games.

Does anyone know what an equivalent deal to 50/50 with makeup be for a no makeup deal long term? i.e. 60/40, 65/35?

I thought about this and realized that it's dependent on how often you settle up. The fewer the number of hands, the greater the risk of a player being stuck and the backer is left in the hole as opposed to more hands between settling.

Also the player can take advantage of this and, if stuck for a lot, wait for the backer to take the hit before starting out again. I think this makes deals with no makeup too great a risk for the backer.

Doug is a boss.

How can you ensure honesty/integrity when staking a live cash game NL player, or is this just a bad idea inherently?

Great post some very useful knowledge in there which will help to find a winning horse.

very helpful
thank u

wcg wrote this:

I would say for cash games, 50/50 with makeup is pretty standard. If the person your staking is especially good i think 60/40 (stakee/backer) is probably more fair. If a player is good he is very unlikely to lose you money in a cash game stake so its relatively speaking a much lower risk investment then tournaments for example.
However the opposite can be true, it can be 40/60 if for some reason you feel the player is not very good (but why are you staking him is the question here).

---

one horse w 6bb/100 and supernovaelite rakeback at ps, should get 60/40 ? im wondering if this huge rakeback allows horse to receive more than 60%.

Can somebody please advise me as to what sort of stakee/backer chop % is fair under these terms?

*Backer is providing 100% of the roll for a high stakes live cash game.
* There is no make up
Blinds are going to be £5/10 or £10/20 with the average buyin being in the region of £15k
* The game is going to consist of mainly very rich businessmen who understand the rules of poker but aren't very competent
* The stakee only has experience of cash games up to 2/5 but would have a considerable edge in this game.

With no MU, maybe 60/40 in the backer's favor (or maybe even 65/35 or 70/30).

Personally I would be willing to give better than 60/40 if I had to for this horse. It's just what the horse is willing to take and what the market will pay though.

Sorry, this seemed like a good place to ask this. Let's say I have a standard deal 50/50 w/mu over a month long period with an initial stake of 2g
Scenario 1: we cash out profits weekly
Week 1:hes +3000 and we each take 1500 $
Week 2:-1500
Week 3:+2100 1800$ for me and 300$ for him
Week 4:-500 and ships me back my 1500 left,
My total profit :1300$, his total profit :1800$

Now scenario 2:we split profits at the end of the month for these same 4 weeks, he's +3100 at the end of the month and we each get 1550$

Ive read lots of reasons for letting the horse cash out earlier or not letting him do so but this isn't touched upon. Am I missing something here like he should be paying back the losses with his winnings because in extreme cases, (say he made 500$,the first week and lost each week after) he's walking away with money even though we lost money overall.

Thanks for your feedback and sorry if this was the wrong place to ask this, I'm just frustrated looking for an answer and the last time I asked the answer I received was 'that's the risk of being the backer' which is absolutely ******ed as any backer would know that the profit and losses depend at all on the payout structure.

If the stake is only over the course of 1 month, I think it's usually best to do chops at the end of the month. It can get pretty messy for the last month of play (say horse chops a ton of $ at the start and then the last week loses a ton of money and the backer just eats it). Additionally, you can have a caveat that says that the horse cannot leave the stake in makeup, so he has to play until he grinded that $500 loss back (in scenario 1).