What about the guys in makeup? It is so frigging annoying when someone gets into makeup and then basically stops playing. Makes me want to ask them to repay their makeup or face negative feedback. It's one thing if they keep losing but to essentially stop playing (like 2k-5k hands/month) is pretty much a breach of contract.

Hey guys,

I'm currently setting up a deal with 2 people to play live cash games.

I've written a sort of contract between together. Tell me if u think it's enough clear and makes sense It's special because they gonna use the same bankroll and split the winnings (if one players lost 1/2 of the bk and the other guy won 1/2, no one of them will get money).

Here are the rules

1. I stake you for 2000€. This will be your total bankroll (for both of you)
2. You have to play at least 10 sessions until the XX/XX/YYYY
3. You have to keep me aware on the results after each sessions
4. At the end of the deal, I'll get back all of my investment.
5. YOu have to give me 50% of total benefits and you get 25% each
6. If the total bankroll goes under 2000€ after a session, I can complete to get back to the initial bankroll.
7. I can stop the deal if the initial bankroll has been lost.
8. If the bankroll goes under 1K€, only one player I've chosen will play.

you can add this into a contract as well, tell them the first month you will get your cut reduced, two months in a row will mean your contract may be terminated and you will be asked to pay any makeup in full or something like this.

You can add any stipulations to a contract that you want, I think a lot of backers feel bound to just do what other people do or to what is "fair" to a horse. Fact is the only people that will find it unfair is the people lying about the amount of volume they can put in, or the people trying to angle you into dropping them. The chances that people will pay off the makeup may be small (most people who want staking are busto) but at least you will have better reason to leave negative feedback about them and they won't be able to get backing from others. I will actually probably add this point to my contracts.

I haven't finished reading the post, so maybe this has already been said, but this just seems like collusion.

You have to leave the game beatable for them. Sounds like they will have a very low hourly.

I'd also include a clause that you can stop the deal at any time.

Not sure if this is in it already but it seems like a good idea to record your stakee on video over skype agreeing to the stake and conditions.

This will be in the back of there mind in the unlikely event of them considering a scam.

how to explain isildur1 tho...? seems to negate the the most increadible story in online poker history

Staking him sounds like a quick way to go busto unless you have a 7-8fig bankroll

this is a great post. thank you very much

i have a few more Qs about staking. im wondering what the differences are between staking cash, mtt and sng. thanks for the post though.

Hi,

I'm in the process of staking a friend for live cash ($2/$5 & $5/$10) I've known and played with the guy for years and know his results both online and live. He's not the best player I know but has consistently beat both the live stakes aforementioned as well as 100 and 200nl online with volume. Long story short, he's a great horse who just paid off student loans and a car with his roll. He's going to be staying with me in Vegas for the duration of the stake and we've written up a variation of the standard contract recommended by Doug.

My questions are more towards stat keeping and reporting given the live setting. (what a shame he can't just send me hem logs. Hah!) He will obviously report duration of sessions, buyins used, cash out amounts, but what else should I be keeping track of? I'm much less worried about getting into makeup and facing stop loss and more concerned with evaluating my ROI. Truth is, I'd be helping him get back into the game one way or another but I want to use this stake to determine if, given e right horse and circumstances, it's a worthy way to continue the diversification of my cash flow and overall investment portfolio.

Thanks for any thoughts!

Cheers

Thinking about letting some friends stake me without make up but with at least a 5 month agreement from me to play for them for 5 months. What would be a fair split in profits? I was thinking about keeping 70%?? Thanks for your help....

From reading previous post and threads. I think a 60-40 maybe a 50-50 to the staker. 70% is a bit high to the stakee and usually the staker ends up with the higher %

1. Your getting their money without the worry of makeup.

2. It depends on the stakes you are playing at and if you can beat them with an average rate of 15-20hr. Might be higher or lower depending on where you live.

3. They are friends and it is their money that is given to you.

Rule of advice: Do no let money come between a friendship.

WCGrider Great post, have a question I have someone that wants to back be in a 5/10 PLO game the proposition is he will stake me 40% of what ever I buy in so if i buy 2000 he gives me 800 i put up 1200. Rebuy's are the same this is a very live cash game people often buyining in for 500 BB. I don't play 5/10 just 2/5 if I win we split profits 40/60 if I loose 40/60. I'm a winning recreational player just that plays 8-10 hours a week. He approached me today, kind of blind sided me so I started reading your thought positive or negative would be appreciated.

I was just offered a stake in my local $2/$5 game. I am a $1/$3 reg. The potential backer claims he has no other horses or staking experience. I admitted I had never been a part of a deal like this & we agreed to discuss terms the next time we saw each other. I just finished reading this thread & had a few questions regarding a staking arrangement:

We have played together a little but haven't talked much poker. Should I be concerned about why he feels I would be good to stake?

Our room typically only has 1 $2/$5 game running so it would be common for us to play together, which raises some issues, specifically what could be perceived as collusion. What's the protocol for playing a hand vs your backer? What if it's heads up? Multi-way? Also, what if your backer sees you play a hand (that he's not in) & he doesn't like the way you played it?

What if, during the arrangement, you want to play in a game without being staked, be it at the limit you're being staked or another? Is temporarily breaking from the arrangement an acceptable practice?

What about terminating the agreement? Can either party quit at any time or should some sort of notice be given?

As a stakee, what things to I need to be aware of to protect myself from being screwed by a backer?

Can you explain this in more detail? What's supposed to happen in the example if the stakee loses 5BIs?

You split profits. When profits are split, the stake starts over.

If you lose 500bb one month, and win 300bb the next, there are still no profits. You have to clear the 500bb loss before you are in the black again. AFTER that happens, you can split profits, and the stake starts over.

I really don't see how it could be +EV to back someone without makeup unless they have some kind of insanely huge win rate.

I have skimmed this whole thread and have not seen what is a normal agreement for say tournaments or sng's?

Can anyone add to this?

Duh, just read the title....can anyone point to me where I would be able to find this info as I dont see any from searches or in the staking section.

I have never staked anyone and never have been staked but I have an offer and would like to know more about live cash game stakes.

My game of choice is 5/10nl live. The game I play had a max buy in of 1000. Now I've been playing the game about 2 times a week for the last year. I never really had a bankroll as I have a great job where I could always get money out when I need. Usually would go there with anywhere from 3-6k at a time and not worry at all if I lost it all. Now I record my sessions And am up around 15k in past year with almost 400 hrs. Not the greatest but variance has been kicking my ass last few months But the bad part is I'm down about 25k playin craps and blackjack in the same time frame. Ik huge leak. I'm getting that under control and am now being offered a stake.

The agreement or offer I should say being put out is to give me 5k everytime I go and splitting the profits 50/50 and if I lose I pay back 50% when I can.

Does this sound fair?

Generally a backer takes 100% of the risk if he is taking 50% of the profit. Really doesn't make sense for you to take this deal when you could just drop down and play 2/5 for the same risk/reward

my question is about live staking for cash games. i've been a live grinder at the 2/5NL game for five years, i've always played on my own roll, and recently a friend offered to stake me for 5/10NL. standard deal, 50/50 split with makeup. he provided me with 6k. we agreed that i would play on the stake when he felt the game looked soft enough.

the first couple times i played on the stake, i lost and found myself in makeup for 3k. then i was breakeven for a few sessions, unable to make much happen. recently i was able to book some decent wins and got myself out of makeup, and + $500 overall.

now i find myself wanting to give him his 6k back (plus the $250 in profit), and alter the agreement somehow. since i'm not playing on the stake on a day-to-day basis, i would rather give my friend the option of taking a percentage of my action (let's say 50%) when the 5/10 looks soft. for example, i'd be grinding 2/5, he'd say "cowboy, why don't you play 5/10...the game is juicy." i would then pick up, go play 5/10, and when i cashed out, we would settle up right away. if i won $2000, i'd give him $1000. if i lost $1500, he'd give me $750, etc. there would be no makeup, and we would always settle the same day.

i feel like this type of arrangement works better for me, since i do not need to be staked on a regular basis, but at the same time, this would allow me to take more shots at the bigger game w/out having enormous swings. my friend would still benefit, because he knows i'm a winning player, and he'd be able to decide if the game was soft enough where he'd want a piece of my action.

when makeup is involved, i feel like my backer is not taking on enough risk. if i needed to be staked in order to play, then yes...by all means, makeup is necessary. but my situation is a little different, and i'd like to hear some comments before i go and end our staking agreement.

You can do that, but you should know that that is a much worse arrangement for you and your backer is taking less risk under that scenario. You're still only getting 1/2 of your profit, but now you're taking on more risk and your backer is taking on less.

As mentioned before, unless your winrate is greater than 2x what it is at 2/5 (which I'm sure sometimes it is) then this arrangement doesn't make sense and isn't beneficial to you.

I have a question about makeup:

I am nearing the end of a 3 month 100k hand stake for 200NL-400nl.
We split profits every week. it's a 50-50 split and I was given $10k as a bankroll

I was up about 11k during the stake including rakeback and we split winnings each week. I never had a losing week. I ran really bad and the last 2 weeks have been brutal. I have lost about 6.8k in the past 2 weeks. I have 1 week left on the stake. My remaining bankroll sits at 3.2k as it was never replenished.

Assuming I earn $0 this last week of the stake how does makeup work? Do I keep my previous winnings and I am now in 6.8k in makeup and have to continue a new stake if the backer wants or do I have to pay back the difference from the winnings I already took out from the stake previously?

If the latter is the case does that mean the entire stake is up 4.2k total and we are both entitled to $2,100 total each? Since I have already withdrawn $5500 in profits do I have to now pay him back some of the profits I withdrew out of my own bank account to make sure he has his original bankroll back + 2.1k?

If he has been paid $ 5,500 in profits and has a remaining bankroll of $3,200 left that does that mean he is owed an additional $3,400 from me? $5,500 +$3,400 +$3,200= $12,100, (10k bankroll +2.1k profit)

Or do I just keep the winnings I withdrew and grind until I make back the 6.2k I lost this past week. < IF this is the case what happens if I run bad and never get back into the positive?

What happens if I do not want to do a new stake at the end? Is this stake considered to be in make up or no since it is overall in the profit? Do I have to replenish the $6.8k missing from the bankroll which would mean I am down overall for the stake and he is up overall?

as a rule you should keep your winnings, but if the relationship with the stacker is good I'd suggest your wallet and repair at least in part to losses.

maybe in the future the relationship will be created again.

when I was staked initially things went well, but we shared a 50% end of each month, and as we left a 20% allocation so in reality we took 40% each and 10% each of the profit we left to increase the BR, I think the formula most suitable to overcome this type of problem

If you guys ended the stake now, he gets his original stake back plus half the profits, so 10k +2.1k for 12.1k. This obviously stays the same for if you BE for the rest of the stake and dont wish to renew the contract. If you keep playing and bust the remaining 3.2k, you are now only up 900 and the staker needs to end up with $10,450.

If you agree to keep playing until you have cleared the makeup of 6.8k are are now 10.4k in profit, he needs to be getting 15.2k total.

basically, he needs to have the starting bankroll he gave you (10k) + 1/2 of whatever profits have been made throughout the ENTIRETY of the stake.