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Old 09-19-2020, 02:13 PM   #1
BKiCe
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Question about the ethics of refunding a student

Hi all,

I was looking to improve my understanding of monkersolver and earlier this year got a recommendation from a friend who was pleased with the value he got from a specific coach. This coach charges 150/hr but offered a 20% discount for 5 hours up front, and given I had a personal recommendation, I didn't hesitate to prepay 600 for 5 hours. Out first session was on March 24th and we ended up going for 90 minutes.

I didn't end up getting much value out of the session (can expand on this if needed) and after it ended neither of us contacted the other again. Fast forward six months, I e-mailed the coach earlier this week explaining I didn't get much out of the session and wouldn't be completing the rest, and asking for a pro-rated refund of what I had sent (his base rate of 150/hr @ 90 minutes makes 225, so balance of 375 owed).

He responded in a few hours offering to refund the 375 via Euro on Paypal. I missed the e-mail for a few days, but responded yesterday asking if he could send USD on any of the poker sites we might both be on. To my surprise I got the following response:

"I have had more time to think about this now, and I have also consulted with other coaches, and I think that given the circumstances a refund is not warranted. Especially after so much time has passed.

If there was an issue with the coaching agreement, this should have been communicated much sooner, and not nearly six months after the first session. My policy is not to refund under these circumstances."

Is this really standard or acceptable behavior from a poker coach? If others agree that a refund is not warranted I would appreciate if you could help me understand why.
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Old 09-19-2020, 03:33 PM   #2
Hot*ShoT
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

Very unprofessional and unethical a refund is warranted especially at base rate, it is very kind of you offering this in spit of got nothing out of the session
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Old 09-19-2020, 06:16 PM   #3
mike1270
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

You really shouldn't have waited 6 months. That said if you were my student I would refund the prorated amount.

I think it is wrong for someone to ask to be paid for work they didn't do.
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Old 09-20-2020, 03:57 AM   #4
Hot*ShoT
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

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You really shouldn't have waited 6 months. That said if you were my student I would refund the prorated amount.
It is the coaches task to design / provide a schedule which suits both the student and their content. Scheduling coaching sessions too close in time frame or not scheduling follow-up sessions at all its almost the same.

Obviously when they are running a scam they don't need think about these.

Last edited by Hot*ShoT; 09-20-2020 at 04:06 AM.
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Old 09-20-2020, 04:27 AM   #5
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

I seem to remember Carroters stating in a free RIO vid, that he doesn't refund, and thought a student who wanted a refund on a 25 session bundle, was somehow out of order! He did say that it's in his T's & C's, so he was within his rights to refuse.

Regarding the OP. No offence, but you sound difficult to deal with. Time lapses, not accepting the coaches payment options, when you were getting generous courtesy refund. Also, the coach has to beware of getting scammed in some way, so the refund method is definitely up to him.
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Old 09-20-2020, 04:44 AM   #6
Hot*ShoT
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

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I seem to remember Carroters stating in a free RIO vid, that he doesn't refund, and thought a student who wanted a refund on a 25 session bundle, was somehow out of order! He did say that it's in his T's & C's, so he was within his rights to refuse.



Regarding the OP. No offence, but you sound difficult to deal with. Time lapses, not accepting the coaches payment options, when you were getting generous courtesy refund. Also, the coach has to beware of getting scammed in some way, so the refund method is definitely up to him.
Yeah OP likely was not tried to get coaching from a certified clown but that's just a hard guess.
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Old 09-20-2020, 05:22 AM   #7
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

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Originally Posted by Tubi View Post
Also, the coach has to beware of getting scammed in some way, so the refund method is definitely up to him.
how would the coach be getting scammed?
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Old 09-20-2020, 05:38 AM   #8
Hot*ShoT
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

If anything the coach should be happy he had that money at his possession without providing anything in return the whole time but we can always learn something new so let's have a go at it Tubi
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:11 PM   #9
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

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how would the coach be getting scammed?
I worded it (the coach has to beware of getting scammed in some way) , as we are obviously not all aware of all scam methods. We just have to be careful of strange behavior. Like long delays, implausible reasons, and alternative refund options.
I sell online, and I would advise people to only refund by the method they were paid, to the same name/ account that paid them. Especially PP, so they can't make a later chargeback, even though you refunded them another way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BKiCe View Post
If others agree that a refund is not warranted I would appreciate if you could help me understand why.
Because a coach might only accept a few students at a time, due to time constraints. Your booking might have caused him to decline other new students. It's pretty standard for all types of tuition.
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Old 09-21-2020, 08:13 AM   #10
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

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Originally Posted by Tubi View Post
I worded it (the coach has to beware of getting scammed in some way) , as we are obviously not all aware of all scam methods. We just have to be careful of strange behavior. Like long delays, implausible reasons, and alternative refund options.
I sell online, and I would advise people to only refund by the method they were paid, to the same name/ account that paid them. Especially PP, so they can't make a later chargeback, even though you refunded them another way.
I can't see any angle from which the coach needs to be wary of potentially being scammed. Not sure how a long delay increases the risk of a scam. Not sure how you could view my perspective that I don't see value in paying for this coaching as being "implausible." I prepaid for 5 hours of coaching based on someone I know recommending this coach. I completed the first session almost immediately after paying. I didn't follow up with the coach for 6 months - clearly I was unhappy with the coaching and wasn't interested in continuing.

I sent USD on Paypal which he paid a fee to convert to Euro; he knew I am American. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a refund in my actual currency. And I don't think it would have been unreasonable for him to say no, I only have Euro on Paypal, that's all I can send. It seems like you must be posting in bad faith for you to view my asking for a refund in my native currency as a potential avenue for a scam. If the guy thinks he is not talking to the person he coached he can simply ask for a voice/video chat to confirm it's the same person he had on the coaching session six months ago. He's not even saying anything of that nature, he's just claiming (after initially agreeing to refund my money) that his policy is to offer no refunds, and that he says he has consulted with many other coaches who agree he should not refund my money. Which is what I would call him perpetrating a scam, certainly not being the victim of a scam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubi View Post
Because a coach might only accept a few students at a time, due to time constraints. Your booking might have caused him to decline other new students. It's pretty standard for all types of tuition.
I pre-booked 5 hours. It was agreed upon that we would have to schedule sessions ahead of time based on the coach's availability, so I'm not sure what you're saying makes any sense. You'd have to have hundreds of students for this to be a concern. And if you did, refunding one student for a few hours of your hourly rate seems completely trivial.

I'm holding out hope of a resolution today, otherwise will out him and post details of our correspondence in this thread.

Last edited by BKiCe; 09-21-2020 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:49 AM   #11
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

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Originally Posted by BKiCe View Post
I can't see any angle from which the coach needs to be wary of potentially being scammed. Not sure how a long delay increases the risk of a scam. Not sure how you could view my perspective that I don't see value in paying for this coaching as being "implausible." I prepaid for 5 hours of coaching based on someone I know recommending this coach. I completed the first session almost immediately after paying. I didn't follow up with the coach for 6 months - clearly I was unhappy with the coaching and wasn't interested in continuing.

I sent USD on Paypal which he paid a fee to convert to Euro; he knew I am American. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a refund in my actual currency. And I don't think it would have been unreasonable for him to say no, I only have Euro on Paypal, that's all I can send. It seems like you must be posting in bad faith for you to view my asking for a refund in my native currency as a potential avenue for a scam. If the guy thinks he is not talking to the person he coached he can simply ask for a voice/video chat to confirm it's the same person he had on the coaching session six months ago. He's not even saying anything of that nature, he's just claiming (after initially agreeing to refund my money) that his policy is to offer no refunds, and that he says he has consulted with many other coaches who agree he should not refund my money. Which is what I would call him perpetrating a scam, certainly not being the victim of a scam.



I pre-booked 5 hours. It was agreed upon that we would have to schedule sessions ahead of time based on the coach's availability, so I'm not sure what you're saying makes any sense. You'd have to have hundreds of students for this to be a concern. And if you did, refunding one student for a few hours of your hourly rate seems completely trivial.

I'm holding out hope of a resolution today, otherwise will out him and post details of our correspondence in this thread.
Ok. I won't waste your time Karen, as you will be busy doxing the coach and trying to get him cancelled for your ineptitude in waiting six months, then changing the refund method.
You'll only change the story again anyway, accuse me of bad faith, and come up with ludicrous " You'd have to have hundreds of students for this to be a concern" .
Peace Out
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:52 AM   #12
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

I think you did the coach and his future students a disservice by not providing feedback on the coaching after you decided it wasn't a good value. I also think it's uncouth to wait six months before contacting him and requesting the refund. That said, if I were the coach I'd refund you and I think it's unprofessional of him to renege after he agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The coach
My policy is not to refund under these circumstances."
Were you made aware of his policies and terms before you sent the funds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BKiCe View Post
I didn't follow up with the coach for 6 months - clearly I was unhappy with the coaching and wasn't interested in continuing.
Are you saying your silence implies dissatisfaction with the coaching? I don't think that's true. You're presumably a busy dude and it's been a wild six months for just about everyone - things happen. If you were unhappy with the coaching, the onus is yours to provide that feedback to the coach, especially if you're expecting a refund.
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Old 09-21-2020, 02:22 PM   #13
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

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Originally Posted by CBorders View Post
Were you made aware of his policies and terms before you sent the funds?
Nope. He promptly replied to my first e-mail and agreed to refund me (in EUR). Only when I asked if he had any way to send me USD did he suddenly announce that he has a policy of not refunding. He also (in the same e-mail) stated that he also has a policy that all coaching must be complete within 6 months, which I also called him out for as just being something he made up and sent me, and he agreed that he had not stated either "policy" to me at any point in our prior communication.
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Old 09-21-2020, 02:26 PM   #14
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBorders View Post
Are you saying your silence implies dissatisfaction with the coaching? I don't think that's true. You're presumably a busy dude and it's been a wild six months for just about everyone - things happen. If you were unhappy with the coaching, the onus is yours to provide that feedback to the coach, especially if you're expecting a refund.
No, more responding to the idea that it is implausible that I would contact him after six months and say I wasn't happy with the coaching and would like a prorated refund of the unused hours.

I agree I should have contacted him sooner. But at the end of the day I don't see how that has any bearing on him keeping (stealing?) my money.

Last edited by BKiCe; 09-21-2020 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:44 PM   #15
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

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Originally Posted by BKiCe View Post
Nope. He promptly replied to my first e-mail and agreed to refund me (in EUR). Only when I asked if he had any way to send me USD did he suddenly announce that he has a policy of not refunding. He also (in the same e-mail) stated that he also has a policy that all coaching must be complete within 6 months, which I also called him out for as just being something he made up and sent me, and he agreed that he had not stated either "policy" to me at any point in our prior communication.
This makes me wonder why didn't he point to these policies or mention them when you requested the refund. Also why would he need to talk to other coaches about it if these are his policies?

Does he know about this thread? It'd be good to hear why he rescinded on the refund.
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Old 09-22-2020, 04:32 AM   #16
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

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This makes me wonder why didn't he point to these policies or mention them when you requested the refund. Also why would he need to talk to other coaches about it if these are his policies?
I guess because he's trying to scam me. He has since walked back his claim that he has a policy that all coaching must be completed in six months, as he agrees this was never stated anywhere. But he still claims that he has a no-refund policy (again, never stated anywhere) and has now told me he will no longer reply to any e-mail about the refund, he will only respond to e-mails about booking furthers sessions.

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Does he know about this thread? It'd be good to hear why he rescinded on the refund.
Yes, I sent him the link after he claimed that he had spoken to several coaches and everyone told him it was industry standard not to refund me. I invited him to have any of the coaches he spoke to post in this thread with their thoughts, which as we've seen didn't happen.
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Old 09-22-2020, 05:10 PM   #17
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

Both of you could have followed up sooner but he's not providing any utility to you in exchange for the remaining $375. Your number is completely fair, that should just be the end of it so this not being resolved is getting sketchy fast.

Tubi is just posting nonsense.
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:39 PM   #18
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

Seems reasonable to post correspondence and name & shame at this point.
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Old 09-23-2020, 04:38 AM   #19
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

I disagree, I think the coach should at least be made aware of this thread before taking the step suggested in the last post.

I think it's a highly nuanced issue actually with arguments on both sides, but I'm not going to weigh in on that.
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:46 AM   #20
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

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I disagree, I think the coach should at least be made aware of this thread before taking the step suggested in the last post.
To repeat, I made him aware of this post the day I posted it. I have no idea whether he is following the thread or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfBadger View Post
I think it's a highly nuanced issue actually with arguments on both sides, but I'm not going to weigh in on that.
would love to understand the nuance here, as i am missing it.



Here are our last few e-mails:

Quote:
Originally Posted by coach
Hi Andy,

I thought of a potential resolution to our coaching arrangement that I think may be of interest to you:

The problem with paying out refunds is that this constitutes a freeroll on behalf of the student. Let me illustrate why:

In our case, where a package of 5-hours was purchased, the pro rata rate for those hours would be EUR 750. You however purchased a package deal at a total price of EUR 600. If you were able to request a refund for any unused hours from the package at any time, you would be freerolling the coach for EUR 150. This is because in that scenario you could either use the full package and gain EUR 150, or don't and get a refund based just on the hours you used. Therefore it is rational not to have a refund policy, otherwhise the coach would be exposing himself to freerolls.

As a compromise, I would be willing to pay out the difference between what you prepaid, EUR 600, and the pro rata rate for the hours you used, minus a penalty for the freeroll. This penalty ensures that the package pricing model can not be exploited.

In numbers this means 1.5 hours at my non-discounted hourly rate, which equals EUR 225. Deduct this from the EUR 600 prepayment and EUR 375 remains. In addition to this we subtract the penalty to prevent the freeroll, EUR 150, which leaves EUR 225.

Or:

600-225-150=225

If you agree, I will send EUR 225 to the Paypal account you used to pay me.

Please note that this is a compromise offered in good faith and should not entertain any further negotiations.
my response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BKiCe
Daniell,

A freeroll, by definition, is a situation where someone can win, but can't lose. I cannot follow the logic you have used to conclude that a student paying an hourly rate for coaching, with a discount for a certain volume threshold, is a potential freeroll situation for the student. In fact, due to the pricing system, each hour of coaching that I complete makes the remaining coaching cheaper, so once I start I am heavily incentivized to continue. For example, I have paid 1.5 hours for 225 euro for our first session. This leaves 3.5 hours for 375 euro, a rate of 107/hr, which is cheaper than the 125 base rate. In an extreme example where I complete 3.9 hours, I pay 585 euro, so the remaining 1.1 hours only costs me 15 euro (a rate of 14/hr).

Your hourly rate, stated to me via e-mail, is 150 euro per hour. If I want 1 hours, or 3 hours, or any amount less than 5 hours, that is the rate I, or anyone else, would pay you. Your pricing system can be described as a "pay for 4 hours, get the 5th hour free" deal, where someone pays $600 euro for 4 hours (150 euro/hour) and then receives the fifth hour free. In the event that the student completes less than 4 hours he receives no discount and pays your standard rate of 150/hr. It is impossible for you to be getting freerolled when you are guaranteed, at any point, to make a minimum of 150 euro/hour for your time. There is no way for a student to "exploit you" and pay less than this rate unless they complete the freeroll you offer, by paying for 4 hours and receiving 5 hours of coaching, which is a freeroll I am declining by requesting a refund.


Thanks,
Andy
response i received this morning:

Quote:
Originally Posted by coach
Hi Andy,

The deal will remain on the table until Friday, the 25th of September, 5 PM UTC. After that time, the deal will no longer be available to you. If the deal is not accepted by the deadline, in addition I will also go public and post a response to your claims with evidence.

Kind regards,

Daniell
my response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BKiCe
Daniell,

You aren't going to respond to a single point I made?

I've already linked you to a twoplustwo thread where several members of the community are discussing you and your actions. Feel free to post a response to my claims there now so we can discuss between now and Friday. Please ask the friends you've mentioned in this e-mail thread to post as well, since you've indicated you have spoken to several coaches who believe refunding me to be illegitimate. The more discussion we can generate, the better.

Thanks,
Andy

Last edited by BKiCe; 09-23-2020 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:58 AM   #21
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

it is truly hilarious he is trying to threaten me to accept his "deal" by going public and posting a response to my claims. as if i didn't link him to this thread four days ago and request a public response.

can anyone can make sense of his "freeroll" argument and ELI5?
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Old 09-23-2020, 11:41 AM   #22
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

OP and his friend sound like a headache. If you didn’t like the session you should have addressed it immediately after the session. It sounds like you didn’t care for 6months until now when you are having money issues. Def can’t expect to get a full refund from a package unless agreed otherwise. Would hope for a partial refund at best.
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Old 09-23-2020, 01:39 PM   #23
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

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OP and his friend sound like a headache. If you didn’t like the session you should have addressed it immediately after the session. It sounds like you didn’t care for 6months until now when you are having money issues. Def can’t expect to get a full refund from a package unless agreed otherwise. Would hope for a partial refund at best.
try reading the thread first, all-star. no one expects a full refund.
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Old 09-23-2020, 03:05 PM   #24
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

Quote:
Originally Posted by BKiCe View Post
Originally Posted by coach
Hi Andy,

I thought of a potential resolution to our coaching arrangement that I think may be of interest to you:

The problem with paying out refunds is that this constitutes a freeroll on behalf of the student. Let me illustrate why:

In our case, where a package of 5-hours was purchased, the pro rata rate for those hours would be EUR 750. You however purchased a package deal at a total price of EUR 600. If you were able to request a refund for any unused hours from the package at any time, you would be freerolling the coach for EUR 150. This is because in that scenario you could either use the full package and gain EUR 150, or don't and get a refund based just on the hours you used. Therefore it is rational not to have a refund policy, otherwhise the coach would be exposing himself to freerolls.

As a compromise, I would be willing to pay out the difference between what you prepaid, EUR 600, and the pro rata rate for the hours you used, minus a penalty for the freeroll. This penalty ensures that the package pricing model can not be exploited.

In numbers this means 1.5 hours at my non-discounted hourly rate, which equals EUR 225. Deduct this from the EUR 600 prepayment and EUR 375 remains. In addition to this we subtract the penalty to prevent the freeroll, EUR 150, which leaves EUR 225.

Or:

600-225-150=225

If you agree, I will send EUR 225 to the Paypal account you used to pay me.

Please note that this is a compromise offered in good faith and should not entertain any further negotiations.
This is absolute nonsense. The "penalty" is you not getting the discounted rate and paying the normal rate like you offered. Taking an additional $150 for nothing is on the verge of stealing. This person's explanation makes me question his math abilities and if he is qualified to coach poker at all.
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Old 09-23-2020, 09:24 PM   #25
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Re: Question about the ethics of refunding a student

I understand that the non discounted single hour fee is €150. And that is not in dispute.

€150e (the non discount bulk rate) x 1.5 hours = €225. That figure means no free rolling or marginal gains for student.

It’s irrelevant whether your gave 600,750, or 1500. Whatever you paid should be returned minus 225.

They could always be awkward and claim an “admin fee”. That would be poor form, low cost airline style, but the current position of “we need to add X and takeaway Y” sounds like an effort to confuse you, and a bit disingenuous. It could of course be a misunderstanding.

Not sure I follow the currency argument. The service is provided in euro, if your account charges for converting a euro transaction than that is not the company/providers problem. I would be returning you whatever you paid minus 225 in euro, via a means that doesn’t see me incur a fee.
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