seems like you have good knowledge of all sites jspill, what would you say is their biggest downsides since obviously each site will have various negatives? are there any negatives which are common amongst all 4 in your opinion?

i do know most of the major ones yeah, not affiliated with them or anything, just a bit of a junkie for training videos. i got cardrunners/the old stoxpoxer free from the full tilt rakeback program, dragthebar from partypoker rakeback, a month on bluefire from a random poker site sign up promo (now expired), used the free trials on deucescracked, leggo and pokersavvy, and bought a few one $30 one month subscriptions here and there.

i can't really imagine any negatives from watching a bunch of videos. obviously they won't magically transform your game, but there should always be something beneficial to be gained from watching someone play, talking through their thought process, seeing how the games play at certain stakes, etc. because of how competitive the sites are now and how knowledgable the average viewer is, there really aren't many poorly made/unhelpful videos anymore, which used to be the case in the past. there's a bunch of excellent free content out there too, some of which can be found in the 2+2 videos forum, so training sites really need to make an effort.

i guess the only negative would be if you paid for a year long subscription or something and then didn't learn actively enough, i.e. didn't get involved in forum posting, session review, ask questions, etc. all the major sites have pretty decent forums with a good signal to noise ratio where you can directly pick the video makers brain about something. i think that kind of thing is equally as important if not more so than watching videos, as video makers often seem to hold back a little, saving their best info for private coaching for example.

in one of matthew janda's (he's a game theory expert and winning 400nl reg, his vids are about balancing your range, optimal 3bet ranges, etc.) recent vids on cardrunners he makes an interesting point that of all the poker players he knows, there tends to be 2 schools of thought, one is the 'let's approach the game super academically and really break it down, study, and try to make the best decision at all times by spending a lot of time thinking away from the tables', and the other is 'just put in tons of volume and therefore you'll figure it out through experience, and the results will come as we get to the long run quicker'. he acknowledged that some naturally talented players don't need to study as much, but emphasised that almost anyone can benefit from leaning more towards the first school of thought, even though it can be tempting to be lazy and neglect that.

but yeah, tl;dr, i can't see any negatives with training sites, given how cheap/free they are, and the average quality + relevance of their content

I am a Micro player (nl4-nl10) looking for a good site for sh nlh..
from what i have read deucescracked is very good for me, but it is 29 per month. on the other hand it is grinderschool for 10. is dc so much better on these stakes to worth the difference or should i just sign up with grinderschool, get the most out of it and join deucescracked as i move up in stakes?

not familiar with grinderschool but i'd guess DC has a bigger library/variety, and is probably better. try both and see how you like them. DC has a free 7 day trial, grinderschool gives 1 month free for any lock poker deposit, and on both sites you can get continued free access with a rakeback deal

actually just after I say that sauce has released a 50nl vid on leggo today, part 1 of many to come, which is awesome

I have yet to join any site but here r the negatives I'm aware of.

CR BFP both have a signup fee.
BFP's forum is very poor.
LP CR videos have DRM.
CR has high volume n a fair bit of poor quality fillers (along with the higher quality ones).
BFP has 'less' volume.

Jspill to confirm??

^yeah i think you are very correct on those

Another thing I wanted to dicuss.
Various coaches have realised high prices ebooks/videos. This suggests they r 'holding back' info n saving all their best stuff.

(I've read elsewhere jman holds NOTHING back)

some of them are worried about regs watching and gaining an edge on them, for example tpiranha quit cardrunners after a few vids, which sucked as he's like one of the best midstakes LHE grinders in the world. happens a lot on cardrunners, 1 jungleman vid, 3 heisenb3rg vids, list goes on


http://anthonypirone.blogspot.com/search?q=cardrunners

i guess they don't get paid that much to make videos too, but making a sick ebook with loads of info they don't mind about, cos they can charge a high price, and its cool to be immortalised as a published author. JMan might not hold back cos bluefire = Jman, his name and image are behind it, he genuinely enjoys coaching, and no one can beat him anyway, lol

I'm affiliated with Leggo but this goes for all sites...

If you are a member of X and enjoy watching Y it is imperative you leave comments for Y. Most video producers are not producing for the financial windfalls, they do it to give back. If producers are not made aware that their contributions are helpful and appreciated by the community, they will quickly stop making videos.

Additionally, to clear up a point that was touched on above, Leggo does offer some DRM free content, as does CR I think. Any presentation style or one tabling video does not have DRM (only speaking for Leggo here). I think it comes to about 10% of Leggo content is DRM free. The logic is these videos can actually be watched on an iPhone where a 4 tabling video would be almost impossible to watch on a screen that small.

I am basically tired of watching videos 200nl and below and want to watch more 400-1000nl videos that are being played in TODAYS games, so want to find the site that puts out the most of that format, i dont care if its HU 6max or FR just games played at those stakes

how many midstakes videos does say Leggo, DC, Bluefire and CR put out in comparison to eachother?

Hi

I just have bluefire poker is it any video series that is a must see at any of the othere sites I am a serious NLH cash player.

thanks

AEJones at leggo?

the only site with more than 1 or 2 decent winners in these games is leggo pretty much.

pretty scandolous tbh how few good/winning midstakes instructors there are now.

ty though i didnt just mean in terms of this and the number/ quality of videos but also just the general feel of the site.

MMM... I don't think this is the primary reason. I'd like to think we're all altruistic in nature, but I don't think that's a primary part of a poker players psyche.

I've run a training site for many years, and I've partnered and worked with all of the top training sites and it's always the same thing. Most of the video producers are young, they have little real world working experience, and making videos for the really good players seems like an appealing gateway to get their name "out there", and to make money. However, that doesn't end up happening for most, and they spend a lot more time producing videos, than they would if they just played. Usually most of the content on sites ends up being produced by weak/mediocre players that can make more money producing videos than playing. That's what the sites end up filling their stock with (even most are really losing players), and then you have the occasional really good video by a quality player they end up convincing to produce 2-3 vids, who inevitably move on.

Many that are very big names that partner with sites end up getting quickly disillusioned because they expect to make some content, and be rolling around in money (slightly exaggerating here, but more or less). When the money doesn't come in, and they realize the work involved, they move on.

I think anyone who owns a training site will agree with my statements. It's not the same for everyone, but for just about all of the really good video producers it's the same thing. It's just not worth their time in the long run. That's always been the struggle for me, and I've been doing this for awhile. I opted not to settle on content and turned down a lot of video producers, and only took long term winning players as producers, but the trade off was lower quantity of vids.

There really isn't much money in video training sites anymore, and still boggles my mind that people try and start up new ones.

Agree mostly with previous post. Think most of the sites want to produce a bunch of videos. Good players are expensive, so they hire a bunch of mediocre players cheap. Also, there are decent players who just produce long series of videos with a lot of air in them; PXF is the worst with this. DC and CR have reasonably good quality control in producing mostly decent videos. Deepstacks U and VTPoker produce better prepared and slicker stuff, but also have a lot of mediocre video instructors.

Sometimes you need to check this and other threads for the good instructors or look for names you know or find to be good video authors. There are just a lot of crappy videos to wade through.

hey betgo, any opinion on tellkitchen?

cheers

Hey,

I guess the best (and easiest) way to try and make my point is this...

Producer makes videos and gets zero comments and ratings.

Producer makes videos and gets 5,000+ positive comments every time.

Assuming they both make the same amount of money the producer getting feedback will produce more, and better quality videos.

I think that illustrates all I was trying to say, that feedback has some effect on a producers desire to make videos and the quality of those videos.

Towards the end of your post you kinda make my point, kinda.

Producers are not doing this for the money, because it's just not worth it. Often they have a ton of money in the bank and everyone already knows who they are. The only thing that keeps producers making videos is feedback and a desire to give back to the community. If you wanna talk about it via pm or skype or something lemme know, will stop clogging the thread now.

I've decided to do the free trials on the big 4 as recommended, starting with DC.
I'll be doing one site a week. Being new to training sites can someone list some 'showcase' videos/series on each site? 6max NLHE please.

this thread sure did get a lot more posters before it was moved to the coaching advice forum . surely just stick it in the zoo

anything by foxwoodsfiend on DC, jballer88 on CR, aejones/sauce on LP, samoleus/giggy on BFP

Thanks. Although I was hoping for a list of individual videos as I have very limited time to watch. I watched a few videos from dear foxwoodsfiend and tbh I'm finding it quite boring. Any particular series from his u recommend? I'm liking the light saber from krantz so far. Anyway thanks for all ur help

its not 6max, but i'd recommend watching the HU series 'remember the railbirds', if you like light sabre. should still help your game and it's def. not boring, you'll see what i mean. i'd just download a bunch and watch later imo, there's no DRM. on leggo i'd just watch as many of aejones/sauce you can, in particular there are 2 vids where aejones and ansky do dual commentary. for bluefire, the philosophy vids by Jman

btw, pokersavvy also have a 7 day trial, and foucault's NL vids are v. good

I disagree with some of your views on things FreakDaddy. You do make some good points about expectations and the results of what actually happens in many cases.

However, as a training site owner, it's your job, it's my job, it's Matt's job, Taylor's, Joe's, Hunter's, whoever else, to fight the fallacy of "getting rich" in many instances for making a few videos.

The truth is, that you need to explain to many people that they will get paid very well for making videos, for the time they are working on these videos.

And that last part is really key. Take a big name, have him make a 1 hour video once a week and have him put 3 hours into planning, editing and executing that video.

He's putting in 3 hours per week of work. So why would you allow him to falsely believe that he'll be a rich man for his 3 hour work week?

That's the gap that needs to be closed in many cases. And in many cases you'll find that people aren't interested. You'll encounter new hurdles, many of which will be fallacies that you need to work to disarm.

You have the same job for your customers and community. The same guys that complain that a coach has broke even for 3 months want you to hire the latest and greatest 1 month heater player.

It's hard at times, it's impossible at times (at least I feel that way in some cases), but like anything, you put in the work, keep an open mind and listen to other hard working people's experiences and you can largely reduce a lot of the problems you bring up in your post.

Have to say BalugaWhale on DC is excellent.

A quick question for this thread...

I'm thinking about joining Pocket 5s Training site. I'm interested in their MTT and SNG videos (including their Poker Pwnage archives). Information on their site kinda sucks. I want to know if the videos are Ipad compatible. Any other information regarding this site would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.