ya, hes clearly a fish.


Is there a good site for 45 man sngs, or 180 mans? I liked DC while I was there but I was there for cash before.

Well don't you agree that when you sign up somebody, people expect to see videos semi regularly of them? Don't you think 90% of people expected nutsinho and boywonder to put out more stuff?

It's like I say I got this great football star to join my recreational team and he is going to be really great and then he plays 10 minutes of one game and then is gone for the rest of the season..

Don't you agree you should have some performance standards set for people you sign, like produce x videos in the first y month for z amount of money and then we will see. Instead of yeah just produce a video and maybe do another one if you ever feel like it.

If you are happy to get just one video out of somebody then maybe you could name it "exclusive guest video" but not talk about how you signed this great coach who is going to add so much value.

And to clarify, I am not unhappy with leggos content in general, I think you are one of the best training sites, but I think your signing strategy is misleading.

I used to play poker a lot but decided to quit because I got both a job and an internship. Now my internship is almost over I'm gonna pick poker up again. I found out I had $18 left on stars so I started again. Decided that it's probably easier to skip the main roads if you wanna make some moneys nowadays. Since it's going decent I might have enough roll again to join a coaching site. Maybe you got some advice which is best with the weird combo of games I wanna see vids of:

- husng (beginner)
- plo 6m (beginner)
- mtt (little more advanced)

thanks!

I think you had an initial point about this.

But now two people from their company have informed you of the process of their site, and how they see most other sites as having a similar process.

I think it's fair game once they let you know this. Pushing for this information being more clear on their site or something could make sense, but you personally know what to expect from here on out so complaining to him isn't going to accomplish anything.

What makes you think we weren't one of those 90%?

I hope it accomplishes that training sites are more clear on this. And especially I haven't seen something like this on any other training site. (Signing big pros who are hardly producing any videos)

I don't agree with several points Matt is making. If somebody agrees to be signed as a video instructor on a training site then he SHOULD be required to put out an acceptable amount of videos, BECAUSE that is what customers expect.

So what sucks about this. Because of your current quality (videos per producer per month) people expect a similar quality from the new instructors. Now this doesn't happen, which disappoints customers.
But what's really unethical here is that customers pay in advance (subscription), expecting new instructors to produce similar amoutns of videos. Now when this doesn't happen customers have paid for services they expected but did not receive.

Again if you sign a superstar for your sports team people are going to buy a lot of season tickets because they expect him to put in a similar volume as the other players. If he then only plays one game of the season because you don't want to pay for more (or he doesn't feel like playing) it sucks for the people who bought tickets to see him.

And I am certain your subscriptions and extensions during your sign-ups of nutsinho and boywonder were higher than usual.

So you earned money and are happy, but besides this being questionable from an ethical view, I also think this will be bad for your future reputation. Because people, like me, notice that you sign great people but they don't produce videos. So I rather go to a training site that has less popular players but which are producing quality videos.

So I think leggopoker should be concerned with this, because despite the initial increase in revenues, this could reverse and have people going to other sites.

So now to Matt's point that he can't put that into practice.
I already mentioned one possibility. If somebody is only asked to do one video, then just feature it an a guest video so it doesn't raise the expectations that this will be a regular occurence.

Secondly, you could easily make a contract with each coach that says e.g.: Produce 6 videos in 6months, for each video you get paid $2k immediately and if you finished the 6 videos in time you get a $10k bonus.
Or: coaches are required to produce 6 videos in the first 6 months. They receive $5k for each video but have to pay $5k for each video they produce less in this time (making exceptions for unexpected circumstances like illness etc.)
[Oh and please don't use the agrument again that money doesn't matter. Let's see how many videos nutsinho and boywonder could suddenly put out in a week if you pay them 100k a video]

If coaches are not willing to sign something like this what qualifies them to be a part of your instructor team? Your instructor team shouldn't be something where people just join and leave, it should be decently long term right?

I just got a PM about www.tournamentpokeredge.com

Anyone know about that site?

This is super standard on all the big training sites.

This is a seriously good idea, I hope you're taking notes Matt/Aaron.

I think you make good points on the labeling part.

The money analogy that you used has some flaws though. Ron Artest and probably Lamar Odom took less money to play with LA this year. They are still getting paid well, but probably could've gotten 15-20% more if they had went with the highest offer.

Now if they received 50-100% more money, I'm sure they would've gone somewhere else.

My point is, that people will take less money to do things, meaning that less of their decision is about the money. That doesn't mean if you throw out some astronomical fantasy number that they wouldn't take it. Money has value to everybody, when you make the amount of money absurd the value for more people will rise to the level of "ok I'll do this now." I think the point that they were making was that those instructors value the money less than the average instructor doing this.

Some of your other points still stand, I just don't love the money one because virtually anybody would make one poker video for 100k, including many that likely will never do a video under current market conditions.

I won't pretend to know the correct solution here because I don't know how Leggo operates nor how their members feel, but if everybody felt the way you do the likely solution would just be for Leggo to be more clear about who makes how many videos and when.

Unless you specifically asked for information regarding a training site, please report all PMs that are advertising a business/site to a moderator.

Training sites are only allowed to PM information about their sites when a user publicly asks for it on the boards. Sending unsolicited PMs advertising sites is not allowed here.

Just to be clear, I would consider DC a big training site. And it is not the standard at DC.

Hey Joe,

I wasn't trying to single anybody out and I'd consider DC a big training site as well. I still remember the thread in the 2+2 DC forum when flawless_victory was announced as a coach. I was pretty excited that he might put out some videos. I had a quick look in your coaching section and I see that MDMA has been taken down, BLdSWtTRs is still up there though. Now maybe you don't consider them "video producers" but that's not exactly clearly stated, which was the main complaint in the part I quoted.

It's not hard to come up with examples and I haven't had a training site subscription for a while now. CTS put up quite a few videos on CR but there was always a massive fuss whenever a month or two went by without a new CTS video. I'm sure a lot of people were looking forward to Fees' videos on Bluefire as well.

It's not like you can do anything about it though and it's pretty unrealistic to expect otherwise, sometimes big name pros aren't good at churning out videos.

no ,, but looking at their video libary which has increased by 50 percent

there is what you were looking for early stages 1,2,3, (however this looks to be a live video session, )
the early stages with big dog,, and we don't know if that video is what you are looking for as it could be live playing,, and not instructional focused core powerpoint, or pop ups/replayer hand examples that you (and me to be honest ) is looking for.

I don't know the value of joining a site and growing with it is that you grow an emotional bond and this site is just new a month.
the sit and go videos hasnt' been added.
i will probaly try it out around this year when i go to start trying out new sites next month.

personally as if you are just going to watch a video a day,, you could wait a month and try another mtt site that has some enough videos to watch then give it a shot next month.

to be truthful, the industry standard for mtts seems to be live instruction, replayer, and no real powerpoint, replayer examples hand to illustrate the powerpoint, with some simulation like propokertools in it.
anyone care to tell me which site is best for that ?

even looking at strictly mtts sites, it is all about reviewing the big win, (which if i am an intermediate winning player i would be craving i would imagine, ) but for me i am looking for the kiddie pool mtt site down the street (kiddie game from gabe down the street).

Hi RedJ,

Just to be overly clear, MDMA was taken down by his request as a coach over 2 years ago and never made a commitment to videos, nor did we announce one. We have never ever said BLD would be making videos. He has done coaching through our site, as we are one of the few sites that processing coaching requests, and thus, he is listed as a coach.

When we announce our schedule and new coaches, we outline what they will be doing. We have announced Flawless will be in a video, and he has been in that said video, nothing more. We offer coaching through our site and Brain has done plenty of coaching through DC, again listed as a coach.

Our producers are listed at the top of the coaching page, they have commitments, and we do our best to keep them. Usually personal issues and technical difficulties delay videos, but we get them up eventually.

It is by no means 'standard' for DC to announce a coach will be making videos, and not follow through.

I don't think I said anywhere that I received an ad. I simply received a suggestion.

If somebody is sending you a PM with a link in it to a site, that is considered an advertisement.

If I PM you right now "Hey, you might want to check out bighugePLOtrainingsite.com" that is an advertisement. Suggestion/etc. would be semantics, unless you had asked for such openly on the forum.

If you said something like "I'm looking for some sites with MTT videos" then the "suggestion" you received is fine.

But if you're receiving unsolicited PMs about specific poker sites, that is not allowed on 2p2.

Edit: If your reply meant that a buddy or something just PMed you about the site or something along those lines, then obviously that is ok too. But it wasn't clear to me in your reply.

Is it against the rules to not report it? Because unless it's a bot, I'm probably not going to even think about wasting my time to report something like this.

I fear we may be talking past each other a little, although I appreciate why you want to be overly clear. I never said that you made any announcements or commitments for those players to produce videos. Likewise, Leggo never made any announcement or commitment that Nutsinho or Boywonder would produce x amount of videos per month.

While I realise that you list "producers" separately, some of the players listed as "coaches" have also made videos and some have not, although they are, as you pointed out, still part of the site through coaching.

It is also by no means 'standard' for Leggo to announce a coach will be making videos, and for them not to make videos. In fact, every coach listed on Leggo has produced videos for the site.

I said it was super standard for big training sites to have "big pros who are hardly producing any videos". So while it's not DC's standard and it's not Leggo's standard, it is 'standard'. Hopefully this will clear up the difference in meanings.

Thank you for the compliment and I am sorry you felt misled, it is not our intention.

This thread is getting pretty cluttered up with this. If you feel the need to discuss it further or rehash some of your points please feel free to contact me via PM here or on Leggo.

Matt

Does anyone know how I can access the StoxPoker video archive? I was not a stoxpoker member before the merger but I'm hoping all their videos aren't lost forever...

cardrunners will release a stoxpoker video here and there from the archive afterwards, who knows what it will be,, it is only known to them.

but yes after this month, where stoxpoker members (active at some point in april) have time to finish their downloading,, it will be lost forever (those that arent' released by cardrunners).

Why cant the training sites label the coaches as guest producers until they have created x amount of videos or make a commitment. I think this would help people understand better the ambiguity that seems to be present.

I play almost for a year real money poker. And I became a winning player at NL25SH. Because I discussed much hands on forums, read much articles and watched some real good video's. But I became bored and because I was bored I could not concentrate me anymore. The HU games are really different because it is a competion and I want to win.

The problem with HU is there is not much information on internet (I have already read the most on TwoPlusTwo heads up section). When you google "HU SnG strategy" you get not much information and the information that I find is really bad . I also don't know much HU books

Some people say "Make volume and you become a better player". I don't believe them because we make misstakes because we think the move is correct. And when we think a move is correct we don't post it on the forum. So we learn nothing. Also there are not much free video's on the internet and the one wich I have seen are really bad I don't know about the sites where you must pay but I hope it is much better.

Hope we can get a discussion about how we can improve our HU skills.

Hey guys this is my first post on 2+2 but i've following the forums for quite some time......

I've had success up to the 25NL level. I am looking to seriously improve my game and learn omaha over the summer vacation. I have been looking into joining a training site (namely CR or BFP) in a bid to do this. I was just looking for advice from more experienced players about which site is better? I have huge respect for Phil Galfonds game and i'm wondering if his videos are as good as I imagine they would be or is the sheer volume of top quality instructors at CR a better choice?

Thanks in advance.

You would be better with lower stakes PLO and NLHE games. These will deal with the basics and give you the fundamentals before moving onto the higher level stuff. Also, players will be alot worse at lower levels meaning that the concepts you lern from the high stakes pros will not be as applicable.

Drag the Bar have some of Round Towers stuff
Deuces Cracked have a decent selection
Cardrunners similar to DC
Bluefire - overall great PLo content but dearer