No reads...

Poker Stars $1.00/$2.00 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
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Pre Flop: Hero is MP with 4 4
1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, BTN raises, 2 folds, Hero calls

Flop: (2.75 BB) 6 5 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero raises, BTN 3-bets, Hero calls

Turn: (5.75 BB) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero raises, BTN 3-bets, Hero caps!, BTN calls

River: (13.75 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN calls


Should I have slown down on turn?

I'd probably bet/call the turn; given you checked the raise is ok but the cap is spew.

I dont like this hand at all.

Id prob fold this in MP but raise it from the CO. Depends on the CO and button, depends on the blinds etc

As played i call the button 3bet because the flush doesnt seem to bother him.

you must be new, cuz nobody limps around here

LOL Tryptamean... Not new... Just because nobody does it, doesn't mean that I won't do it. I think there are enough arguments both ways.

I plan on posting my thoughts on this hand and what the villain actually had (which may or may not be surprising) tomorrow.

Turn cap is spew, but how it's played, who likes a sexy here? I think this is a great opportunity to make it look like the paired board scared you. I suck at the sexy, but I think this is a great spot for it.

Flop is standard, I like the turn check/raise, but I guess bet calling can be good because you might get a check behind here from overpair/overcard type hands, and there's lots of bad free cards you can give. As played, turn cap is spew. I think sexying the river after turn cap is FPS as villain will check behind too often.

lol. I assumed Hero was BB because he was out of position in a once raised pot w/44. Is there a specific reason you open limp small pairs here? I say this not out of ridicule but just because it seems so standard to never open limp.

fold preflop.

No open raise from the HJ w/44? I thought that was standard.

I think the preflop limp is very rarely correct. It's a raise or fold almost always. The flop is fine, but I think the turn cap is excessive with the 3 hearts outthere. The river bet is obviously standard after capping the turn.

turn is spewwwwww he obv has a straight

A flush seems much more likely to me than a straight.

yeah well doesnt really matter does it

Well if you hand read like **** and don't care about it I guess it doesn't. I'm just trying to help, my deepest apologies sir.

Hey Will,
Would you be kind enough to specify where one or some of those arguments for limping is? I'd like to see them.

Not if you have any understanding of game theory, expected value and poker theory there isnt


Your turn cap is complete and utter spew unless you have some reads that you didnt post in the OP

You turn check is highly debateable as well

It is likely that he has an overpair so when the scare card drops you need to bet/call it.

If you have a good read or a good idea that he will bet 99, TT etc again the go ahead and c/r.

First off, I really appreciate the comments. I would now like to go through my thought process on this hands which I'm sure will really open up the criticism. Which I take constructively, by the way.

OK.. maybe most importantly is that this is a 1/2 limit game where limping is quite common. While I do not do it all that often; but early on without reads, I will limp with pkts from 4 to 7. I do this to encourage others to limp which also happens quite often when an EP player limps. What I am trying to do is build the pot to produce correct set mining odds which I obviously don't have when I open limp.

Now, in this case it didn't work out and the button raised which also made the blinds fold. Since it was HU, I called. At this point, I can't put him on anything other than perhaps just a positional raise.

The flop 6 5 2 (2 hearts) is a good flop for me so I check raise. When he 3 bets, I almost folded right there but with the added straight draw card, I thought I was OK to see another card. Right now, I'm beginning to put him on an Overpair.

Turn gives me my best worst card in that it gives me my set; but also puts a 4 straight board out there and flush board. Again, with the thought that he has an overpair, I check raise and again he 3 bets which could be construed as an overpair or maybe more likely a potential flush or flush draw. I'm not really concerned of straight here as what would have that he would have raised preflop and 3 bet on the flop? So, to me, it was close; but I went with the overpair and capped it. Spew??? Yes, probably. I think I was wrong in capping it. I can see where I get to attached to my reads or lack thereof and go with them.

River card gives my boat and is obviously standard.

What do you put him on????

Results below in white:
ok never mind.. I can't find the right color to blend in with background.. results at the end of the post.

So, there you have it. I obviously have a lot to learn; but hopefully I will get there; but I will always question things. Just because this forum doesn't do things (like open limp with little pairs) doesn't mean that I shouldn't in all cases. Or maybe it does and I am just that dense. Either way, it is what it is.




63s (diamonds)
So, he did have straight and of course I sucked out on him. Hopefully, lesson learned and player noted.

First and foremost

You wont have correct set mining odds unless the pot ends up at least 5 way. Since that is the most it can possibly end up and since you will be raised with non-zero probability you dont have odds.


Now I am all for open limping a lot of hands in ep and mp in a FR game. But doing it in MP3 (FR) or MP in a 6max is just burning money


Second.

Even if it turned out that open limping there was +EV it doesnt imply that open raising isnt more +EV.

Looks to me like you are severely underestimating the value of taking the blinds UI or getting the pot HU vs a caller.

In FR games the value of hitting good hands with speculative starting hands makes it ok to limp.

In SH 95% of your EV comes from taking down pots with the initiative or getting HU vs bad players. Even at loose passive games at 1/2.


I am sorry, but there is no way you can convince me that open limping in the MP with any hand is anything less than absolutely horrible and burning money.

The turn cap is spew. You're hoping he's spewing an overpair here, but it's more likely that he correctly raised his flush draw on the flop. Also, that would have allowed you to check raise the river so you get your bets in better there.

About the limping. Raise the 44 if you want to play it there, but at 1/2 I would just throw it away unless I'm on the button or the game is really nitty. Limp it UTG if you find one of those nice loose passive games that you sometimes find at 1/2. Also, I bet you have stats of 24/15 or something. When you limp pre-flop I immediately know you have a weak hand that I can push you off of. You should keep that in mind when you are up against hand reading opponents. Finally, if you are going to get into trouble like this hand when you do play the 44 this way, that's another argument for throwing it away (until you get better at hand reading and not playing your own hands).

It's not a bad thing to go against the 2+2 norm sometimes, but you have to have the math and reasonable assumptions to back up your play. Otherwise, you will be better off going with the consensus.

Hand 0: 20.534% 20.25% 00.28% 61065 849.87 { 4c4d }
Hand 1: 19.930% 18.84% 01.09% 56816 3276.37 { random }
Hand 2: 19.802% 18.71% 01.09% 56420 3285.53 { random }
Hand 3: 19.898% 18.82% 01.08% 56740 3255.03 { random }
Hand 4: 19.836% 18.75% 01.09% 56522 3288.20 { random }


As you can see, 44 is a slight, slight favorite against 4 random hands, which may incline you to limp. However, all 4 hands have a chance to raise and their raising range will have an equity advantage against you, making all of your preflop bets -EV. Even if they don't raise you will be out of position postflop most of the time against hands that have have equal (or better) equity than your hand. The greatest players in the world are going to have a hard time outplaying a 50/50 hand OOP against bad players.

Maybe you come from a NL background where limping with this hand in passive games is OK, but in limit it's pretty bad.

I fold it because when I'm in a good game, players cold call raises frequently and go to showdown too often. If I were to raise this, it would likely end up 3-way to the flop and unless I hit a set, my hand will be dead by the river. Even if it's best, my aggressive opponents will bet when I check with their draws or busted draws, making it difficult for me to get to showdown with the best hand.

If it's a game I shouldn't be in ( tight players who play fit or fold postflop), I would raise this in MP.

55 is a borderline raise for me in MP and 33 is a borderline raise for me in the CO. Usually these depend on how often the blinds defend.

If you gonna limp this to encourage other people to limp. You better do some table selection. Dont find an excuse for your self to limp only if there are players before you that have had limped you can limp on from the button not from the mp. If you gonna raise it, u better make sure the table is a bit nitty wich is not quite often in these games.