Most threads in this forum are just posted hands and some occassional theory-posts. I was thinking about making a thread about some tips and trix and I hope it doesn't gets to broad and hopefully it can be something good.

There's plenty more or less known tips and trix in PLO and I think maybe you have some to share. An example to it would be very welcome, and of course people can discuss the trix after someone have posted it.

I start with a pretty well known one:

Calling with the nuts on the turn to possibly make the same hand fold on the next street

Example:

You have position with K J 8 6 on a board of T Q 4 A in a HU pot and your opponent bets into you leaving about a PSB behind. Calling is very often much better than shoving. If the board pairs or a heart come you can just bet if he checks to you and possibly making the same hand fold taking away the pot from him. Also, if he was on a bluff and the river bricks he might very well fire again but woulda folded to a turn shove.

The play to just call with the nuts can of course be made very often for other reasons than the main reason one in the example (taking a safe card etc.) but this is a pretty common situation where many players just automaticly stick the money in because they have the nuts with just one street left.

What will you do if a scare card comes and he bets river? It looks like you will always call as you were ready to re-pot on turn? Correct?

I'd like to suggest another T&T (I think it's even more known):

In many situations when you don't have nuts, a river bet has a negative EV. Check or check/call is usually the best play.

The theory goes that you will be called or raised with a better hand or folded with a loosing hand, thus negative EV.

I'm leaning to accept that. Usually I just check the river with a good hand, probably the best hand (what I think is the best hand, not nuts of course), especially if river brought a scare card - paired board or 3-flush.

There are exceptions, of course, particularly when I have a good read on the situation and I am quite sure I do have the winning hand on the river: say when I had a made hand (set or top 2-pair) against an opponent apparently on a missed flush or straight draw. I bet since he might call with a worse 2-pair or even a pair.

This kind of opens me to a bluff as suggested in the original post. But in this situation I try to figure if that river card makes sense - often it does not and I can call the bluff with positive EV. Example: when scare happened as runner-runner, that pair or 2 flush cards came on turn and river.

I am still trying to figure this thing up, so I'm not sure my approach here is completely correct. I appreciate all comments.

of course not. and to clearify, this play is definitely not better than shoving all the time, but vs some opponent in some situations it definitely is.

regarding the tips you said it can often be correct to check even with the nuts instead of betting out but then with the intention to c/r instead of call obv. this because you for example suspect he was on a draw that now missed that he will fold if you bet but bet himself if you check.

also, sometimes you bet with for example the nut flush draw all the way and on the river the flush completes and you strongly suspect he was drawing to a lower flush that he will value bet (+maybe call a c/r) if you check + maybe the possibility that he will represent it. so c/c or c/r is definitely good pretty often, both for the hand in a vacuum and for metagame.

When you lead the flop OOP with a draw to the nuts, particularly if it is the draw to the disguised nuts, it is good to vary your play when you hit by checkraising the turn against a LAG opponent. Mixing this play in makes it easier for you in the future since this opponent will be more reluctant to bluff scare cards and will give you more cheap showdowns when you are holding a marginal hand. Making your opponents play more predictably is usually a good thing.

Stack a Donk works in PLO.

nice

I was able to sucessfully execute your trick (or a variation) today : checked turn and river with nuts and villain bet, I raised, he folded. I was sure if I were to bet he'd folded. So I personally agree I have to pay more attention to varying my play: by checking some of nut hands to invite a bluff.

On the other hand I've seen probably 4-5 showdowns today (during 3-4 hours play) when guys checked river with nuts. I had nothing close to a call and it often was obvious they pretty much had the nuts, so there was even no thought of bluffing. It looks like the trick (checking the nuts) is being widely overused.

So maybe another tip would be that:

Straighforward plays (bet your strong hands and fold you weak ones) should be employed more often than trick plays

Qualification would be: play straightforward against passive opponents (long live calling stations), play tricky aganst agressive ones (they would dig their own pothole even without your help).

I believe I have read that in books (though I can't get a reference off the top of my head ) and I also see that in practice as well.

maybe they've already picked up what you wrote! careful what you write on these forums, you don't want to give away too many trade secrets.

good job on this thread guys, a few more and we have a potential sticky 'how do 2+2ers play omaha hi'

In all seriousness, theres some good advice here; most of it about solid play (tricky play with lags, abc with stations etc etc)....

Another;

Dont bet bare straights with no redraws OOP (unless can get you or opponent all in).... often dont bet in position either; and note your opponents that insist on raising and reraising with bare straights, or straights with limited redraws.

Low rundowns, even doublesuited are crap, especially multiway. They really do look much better then they actually are, and they aren't worth more then a limp in late position IMO.

Straight draws (even big ones) do horribly against flush draws. Remember this, when the flop contains 2 of a suit and adjust accordingly.

I'm sure this one is pretty well known, but figured I'd mention it. The naked-ace bluff. When the board comes w/ three to a flush and you have the naked-ace of that suit you can usually knock your opponent off the hand if you apply a decent amount of pressure.

Also, on the same line of what to do on the river w/ the nuts, or close to it ... Lyle Berman (in SS2) talks about a smaller, 1/3 to 1/2 pot, river bet to get a crying call from an opponent w/ an inferior hand. It's rare you get a full pot river call from opponents. Plus, if you have history w/ opponents this could make your river bluffs much cheaper to excecute.

about naked A bluff.. I actually kinda prefer the naked K bluff, in position acting last or next to it.. even naked Q sometimes, with reads and good feel for the table...

if the NF is out there you'd know it, and you hold the pay off card.. don't even have to bet that big...

i dont know why you would want to make a naked q bluff but you can generally bluff flushes pretty well against bad tight players. if the flop comes monotone watch them throw away everything but a flush to a half pot bet.

Tip:
Dont bare ace the calling station.
He will call the pot sized flop bet, then the second barrel and even the "drop that set"-final river push with T-high flush.

After noticing how badly the "naked ace bluff" works, I have started to valuebet my flopped flushes alot more agressively.

bluffing flush boards does not work badly at all, but picking the right spots (opponents being a big part of this) is essential tho..

my tip for everybody is pls slowplay and try to trap me wherever and whenever u can...

sry for my sarcasm jipster, but why would that be ur standard play to check the nuts?
I understand that checking "sometimes" has its merits, but wtf?!

hahaha; so to prove your very well made and excellent point sir; check this thread: http://forums.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=80470

There is a situation that wanted to be fast played; the reasons are in the replies;

HOWEVER; notice that hes in position with an unbreakable str (that is no one can hit a higher straight);

i mean let me put a hypothetical out sir; you have 600BB and hold 45KQ no suits in the SB, flop comes 367 with two clubs.....

i folded to the first bet in this coup (ok my opponenents had max 150BB but even with 50BB im unhappy); and let me tell you why dear fellow; as us brits are known for their sarcasm;

Any 3, 6 or 7 fills a house (9 cards), Any club completes a flush (thats 10 clubs minus one that houses; or 9 cards) and any 4, 5, 8, 9 or 10 for a higher straight (that is 18 cards minus 5 clubs; or 13 cards).... To summarise, any 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 and/or clubs puts me up the creek with no paddles; a grand total of 31 cards that COULD break me; or at least have me uncomfortable



not a good spot to get money in; sir

These two tips are probably very well known to all 2+2'ers, but I add them anyway

Betting out with top set on single suited flop

This accomplishes 2 things:
1) you may force players to lay down low flushes (so you may take down the pot immediately) and
2) you disguise your hand making it possible to grab huge pot if you get your full house in turn and river
But be careful not to make this move too frequently and/or without correct (implied) odds.


Check-raising with nut straight on turn when the opponent is either on a flush draw or tries to fill up

This tip is especially worth to use when you are quite deep and lot's of money is still left for river betting. By checking on turn you may induce the other player to bet out thinking he has the current best hand (and he may even call your raise). If he still checks behind on turn and the river is scary you can safely check-fold as there is no much money in the pot.
Use this tip when you can get most of your money in by check-raising, but don't do it when you suspect that villain has the same straight and is freerolling.

To use this tip you must be 100% sure the villain does not hit the backdoor flush or make full house on river. This approach seems quite risky to me. I would rather call with the nuts on turn if I'm sure the villain is freerolling. And by the way, by just calling your opponent's bet you have no information about his hand - whether he's got the nuts, is drawing to flush, full house, etc...

no, the play have obviously advantages and disadvangaes, but you dont have to be sure he doesnt have some draw to make it and as I stated its nothing that should be done every single time the opportunity comes up.

Ok then. It sure is quite interesting tip and maybe it's even more worth trying in those tables where rake is a bit higher than usual.

When a raised multiway pot is checked on a paired or flushing flop, checked round on the turn, and then one player bets the river, be very wary of calling him down light. Most of the time you've been slow-played by someone who flopped strong and gave you chance to catch up, realising it was the only way to make money out of the hand.

Most players with an average-strength hand with some showdown value which is far from the nuts won't bet the river; they will check and hope to take it down at showdown. That river bet is usually a trap from someone who flopped trips or a flush. You may choose to call with your rivered straight or two-pair, but you'll usually lose.

good post, although i dont agree. and i love sarcasm btw, u brit
I def. get your point.
summary of ur point of view

If i summarize your argument correct one might paraphrase it like the following: "we are deep, i am ooP, i got the nuts, but to many cards decrease the value of my hand"

You explained how many cards can hurt you, but you seem forgett that only a few of them can help your opponent.

My solution; just theorish

All you have to do is give him a range for leading out AND calling ur raise (although calling might be fine, too, but tahts another point). If he´s never bluffing, cf bad turn cards. Since he never bluffs, you put ur money in ahead = profit

If he is bluffing \vbetting with 100% of his range, just look how ur equity changes on certain turn cards and act accordingly.

If he is good enough to balance etc etc...you should also balance....

If he balances better...WTF are u doing in this hand on that table?!

Hi Hercules - It kind of depends on how many opponents have also seen the flop. With multiple opponents seeing the flop, it's not too hard for one of them to have a set with clubs, and for another to have JT98. And in that case, assuming they both call your bet, you only have 91 turn and river two-card combos that win for you, out of 990 possible. It's about 10 to 1 against you that you'll end up getting outdrawn, and you'll maybe only be getting 2 to 1 fresh money odds. Hard to figure exactly because of changes after the turn - and you're right that one player can't have it all - but flopped middle card nut straights are notorious for getting out-drawn. Playing them properly is a dilemma and depends on your opponents, but even at a table with weak opponents, the danger, because of the possibility of multiple hands against you with various draws, you can get stuck.

One opponent and you're way ahead, (assuming your opponent doesn't also have the straight with redraws), but if five opponents see the flop and two continue to your bet after the flop, the chance your flopped nut middle card straight will hold up are slim. My solution in the high/low game is to pass on starting hands that tend to put you in this quandary if you don't also have ace-deuce or maybe suited ace-trey, suited ace-four, or maybe a few others, depending on the game and your opponents.

Sometimes you're in the big blind and so you end up seeing the flop with trash like KQ54-rainbow. But then if you flop the nut middle card straight, you're in the midst of the dilemma. It's worse in the high/low game, because you're only playing for half the pot. (54 for low with a two-club-763 flop stinks). You have the nuts for high after the flop, but after the next card it's 31 to 14, or about two to one, that you won't still have the nuts for high.

Buzz