Cliff notes: Warning to other customers: Pacific Poker silently charges administration fee of $3,361.80 from my $5,603 balance. Seeking advice on getting funds returned.

This february I logged into my account at Pacific Poker for the first time in little over a year. When I logged off in January 2007, my balance was $5,603. When I returned, the balance was $2,241.

I emailed customer support to ask where my money went. They explained that after 6 months of inactivity, they remove 10% of the original balance every month. They do this until either I start using the account, or the balance reaches zero after 10 months, at which point they will close the account.

They call this an administration fee for dormant accounts. In my case, this fee amounted to $3,361.80. In four more months, my balance would have reached zero.

At no point during this time did I receive any information from Pacific Poker that money was being removed from my account. (I did, however receive numerous email reminders for various promotions during the same period.)

Customer support refers to a clause in their user agreement. And sure enough, a couple of pages into the fine print, this "administration fee" is described. This agreement is subject to change, and even though I cannot recall this clause specifically, it may very well have been part of the agreement when I signed up some years back. I had only heard good things about Pacific and 888 at that point, and never suspected I had to fear this kind of setup from a leading actor in the industry.

I emailed them back twice demanding a refund, arguing that this fee is completely unreasonable, and without any rational justification. They just sent me more emails referring to the user agreement, and are basically saying this is all very unfortunate, but tough luck, we're definitely keeping the monies, thanks for your patience and understanding, we're here for you 24/7, please play our Sunday $80,000 Guaranteed tournament, etc. I have requested that a supervisor looks at my request, but have been turned down.

At that point I more or less gave up. However, I did promise Pacific I'd warn other players about this setup, so today I'm finally posting my story. Please fellow players, let Pacific poker know what you think about this practice. Is this even legal? Any suggestions on how I should proceed to get a refund?

Also, if you think this is unfair, please write an email saying so to support@pacificpoker.com. The name of my account there is "bawanga".

Most importantly however: if you have an account at Pacific Poker or know someone that does, make sure the funds are safe!

Below I have included the correspondance with Pacific Poker Support. (Names x-ed out, line breaks removed for readability)

Thanks,

Oystein


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from: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>
to: support@pacificpoker.com,
date: Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 7:15 PM
subject: current balance incorrect


Hi,

I haven't played since january 2007, but logged in to my account today (username: bawanga). I had $5,603 in my account in jan 2007, when I logged in today, current balance was $2,241.

Cash out history shows nothing for 2007, and I cannot see any hand histories at all. Please get back to me as soon as possible.

- Øystein Xxxx

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from: Pacific Poker (Support) <support@pacificpoker.com>
to: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>,
date: Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 11:01 AM
subject: Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27959121I2229L0KM)


Dear Oystein,

Thank you for contacting 888.

Oystein, in the case you fail to use your account for six months, your account is then considered a "dormant account".

The six-month period runs from the date of your last login to your account.

In the case of a dormant account, the Company charges a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account, on the date that it became dormant.

The administration fee is being deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive, and occurring on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero.

In the event that you log into your account during the ten-month period during which the administration fee is charged, the Company cease to charge the administration fee but shall not be obligated to return to you any monies deducted from the account at such time.

This information is very explicitly stated on our Site User Agreement, to which you agreed when you ticked the "I agree to the Terms & Conditions" box at the bottom of your account registration page.

I hope this clarifies this matter, and thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

If you require further assistance in this or any other matter, please feel free to contact us - we are here for you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.


Kind regards,
Xxxx X.
Member Support Representative
www.888.com
support@pacificpoker.com
www.888.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>
to: "Pacific Poker (Support)" <support@pacificpoker.com>,
date: Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 8:52 PM
subject: Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27959121I2229L0KM)


Hi again,

thank you for the quick response.

I find the 10% per month fee to be completely unreasonable and surely out of proportion with any actual costs you may have in keeping my account alive. However, what I really find hard to believe is that you did not give me some sort of warning before taking money from my account. I am sure you agree that this is important information to me. As it is your policy to inform me by e-mail about various promotions and other issues you deem interesting to me, I cannot see any valid reasons not to remind me that all funds will be removed from my account in the next ten months.

As a leading actor in the online gaming industry, I am confident that it is not your business strategy to make your profit by silently emptying customer accounts. User agreement or not, such a practice would be considered outrageous by the various player communities and organizations.

Due to personal reasons I have not been able to play for the last year or so, but this week I was looking forward to picking up where I left off. I really hope this issue can be resolved, and that my money will be returned to my account as soon as possible.

Thanks,

- Øystein Xxxx

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from: Pacific Poker (Support) <support@pacificpoker.com>
to: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>,
date: Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 5:59 AM
subject: Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27969070I2229L0KM)

Dear Oystein,

Thank you for contacting 888.com

Unfortunately, Oystein, with regards to the fees deducted, it is very clearly stated in the Users Agreement :>

7.1v. Should you fail to use your account for six months your account will be considered a "dormant account". The six-month period will run from the date of your last login to your account. In the case of a dormant account, the Company will levy a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account on the date that it became dormant. The administration fee shall be deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive and occurring on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero . In the event that you login to your account during the ten-month period during which the administration fee is levied, the Company will cease to levy the administration fee but shall not be obligated to return to you any monies deducted from the account at such time.

and which you agreed too, even though it is most unfortunate, there is not much that can be done.

The agreement is there for all our members to read and if agreed too, the policy stands.

Therefore, Oystein, please bear this in mind for future reference.


In addition, if you haven't already done so, why not register an account with our very own forums http://forums.888.com?

A community of casino and poker players, a place where you can share your views, opinions, seek advice and discuss the hot topics of the moment.

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Visit http://forums.888.com NOW!

I do apologize for the inconvenience caused and thank you for your patience and understanding in this matter. If you require further assistance in this or any other matter, please feel free to contact us ? we are here 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Kind regards,
Xxxx X.
Member Support Representative
support@pacificpoker.com
www.888.com
************************************************** ********************
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>
to: "Pacific Poker (Support)" <support@pacificpoker.com>,
date: Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 6:19 PM
subject: Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27969070I2229L0KM)


Please refer this matter to a supervisor's attention.

There is no rational justification for a fee, much less an outrageous 10% per month of the original balance. I defy you to even attempt to offer a rationale that justifies this fee. It costs near nothing to have a dormant account. Quite the contrary, you earn interest off this money.

While the user agreement does have this clause buried in the fine print, your actions are essentially a theft. You stole more than half my account. That you did this without sending a single email reminder just makes it clear exactly what your intentions were.

A theft is exactly how it will be viewed by the online poker community. Poker players want to feel their online money is secure before they play a site. We worry about hackers, super-users, collusion, and now it appears we must worry about the site itself just stealing our money. It doesn't take much for someone to avoid playing on a site these days. Threads in forums of this nature can be extremely damaging to a site's reputation and business. I won't even have to say anything really, I can just post the emails you've sent me.

The clause in the user agreement is absurd. Choosing to enforce it is simply a bad business decision.

If you fail to return my money, I am going to close my account. My friends are going to close their accounts. I am going to post these emails in every poker forum available. Look for them on twoplustwo, pocketfives, cardrunners, and even your 888 forums (thanks for the suggestion.) I cannot believe that this bad press and ill will is worth the mere $3400 you've taken from my account.

My suggestion to you is to return my money. I will regard it merely as an unfortunate run in with a bad policy that will hopefully be changed, or in the least not enforced in the future. Your customers trust you. You need that trust to stay in business. If you think that trust will last as you claim the balance of their accounts as your own with outlandish fees hidden in fine print of user agreements, you are deeply mistaken.

- Øystein Xxxx

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from: Pacific Poker (Support) <support@pacificpoker.com>
to: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>,
date: Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 11:58 PM
subject: Re: [R] Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27977884I2229L0KM)


Dear Oystein,

Thank you for contacting 888.com

Please be advised this is not a matter for a Supervisor to be involved. As I am a support representative this matter could be handled by my authority as in your case, the 10% per month deduction is posted under the " User Agreement Number 7 section (iV) that you agreed too when you became a member at 888.com which states the following and I quote:

- "Should you fail to use your account for six months your account will be considered a "dormant account". The six-month period will run from the date of your last login to your account. In the case of a dormant account, the Company will levy a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account on the date that it became dormant. The administration fee shall be deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive and occurring on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero . In the event that you login to your account during the ten-month period during which the administration fee is levied, the Company will cease to levy the administration fee but shall not be obligated to return to you any monies deducted from the account at such time".

These terms of use are a part of the companies policy and by no means hidden from the public. Unfortunately the funds cannot be refunded.

Please be guided accordingly.

For an efficient operation and to provide better service to our members, we have to ensure that our policies are followed in detail. I am sorry but we cannot make exceptions for individual members.

Kind regards,
Xxxx.X
Member Support Representative
support@pacificpoker.com
www.888.com

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It might be an unfair rule, but if it's in their T&C (which you accepted when you opened an account) then there is nothing really you can do about it as they have the law on their side.

Juk

Pacific has always had a fee for inactive accounts, if I recall. It was something I was aware of when I played there pre-UIGEA. So it's nothing new, in case you're wondering.

I had no idea that it was this big, though. Totally sick. I would be furious too, but I don't think you have any chance of getting it back.

Luckyace casino ran by 888 stiffed me & hundreds of others a few months back, I did eventually get $300 out of $380 that they owed me but I had to get casinomeister.com to fight my case.

Why would you have almost 6k inactive for a year though ?

And yeah this is ridiculous but in the TC so ....

Doesn't seem fair but why leave that king of money just sitting their for a year?

In the UK I don't think you can get away with something totally unreasonable just because its buried in the T&Cs, and this charge is clearly unreasonable.
For example the current court cases about British banks charging disproportionate overdraft fees if you slip a few £ briefly into the red.


I've also had much smaller amounts dissapearing with Littlewoods poker (dormant account fees) another poker site and a rakeback site. I now check all my accounts regularly.

Accusations from a first-time poster, that was expected. But a detailed OP and email correspondence, that might be a first! (that is a compliment)

If this is true, it's highly unjustified and borderline stealing if you ask me. Whether or not it was in the T&C matters very little and if they want to make things right, they should give you your money back. The problem is that online poker rooms like Pacific aren't exactly the most ethically run businesses and many will steal from their customers without batting an eye.

You should write a form letter that some of us can send to Pacific support, then maybe it will get the attention of someone who can actually fix this kind of shady activity.

i think you guys are missing the ****ing point.. this is the most ridiculous rule i have ever heard. the website is stealing his money. it costs nothing to keep the account active. this is the most ******ed thing i have ever heard. i keep a ton of money online, and im not sure what size games run on that site, but imagine if they have a 200-400 nl game, and u keep like 500k in your account, then go out of country to travel or whatever for a year, and u are a semi dumb kid that didnt really think to take it out and invest it or whatever, some tax reasons, make something up, and come back to find you have lost 50k a month for the last 6 months. would it be different then? its the same thing, this is abysmal and i will warn everyone about it. their email responses are a complete joke as well. one guy even fraking smiley faced him.

I think that was just a colon and some weird formatting thing to lead into the citation of the T&C.


Pacific always was one of the most unethical-seeming operations. Who remembers their "player points" structure (pre-UIGEA at least)? It was something that amounted to I think less than 1% RB in cash on your play, and yet there were many, many stories of them stopping point accumulation for winning players. Yes, if a player was a winning player at their poker room (not affecting their take in the slightest!) they would stop giving him their generous <1% RB, probably because they know he'll continue to play there. This company certainly has the appearance of taking any money they can.

sucks OP, maybe u should try the casinomesiter angle as sonneti prev did. i have no idea why ppl are asking why have $x sitting in the acct for so long, i dont see why that matters. if OP was on a mission or doin charity work for that lapse, would you somehow be more sympathetic? the "it was in the site T&C" is pretty lol to me. ive signed up with 6+ poker sites and never once completely read the T&C. gl

Yeah, this is complete BS. We should organize 2p2 in order to get Pacific Poker to change their policies. Good luck getting your money back, maybe with enough bad press you can be successful.

Contact a lawyer, you can almost certainly take legal action against them as 888 is a publicly traded company on the LSE unless im mistaken.

There is a case where someone is suing Stars, who is in more of a legal grey area than 888, so you probably have a great chance of being heard and as the other guy said just because there is a loophole buried deep away in the T&Cs does not make it enforcable by law.

I cant see any reasonable judge being convinced that charging 10% per month, or the total sum of 3.xK out of 5.xK is every justifiable and i doubt they would ever let the case go that far due to the legal precidence they set, they will probably just refund you the money when you get a lawyer to send a nice pretty letter.

As said above, just because it's in the T&Cs doesn't mean "well you are screwed you agreed to them.". The terms can be ruled unacceptable. 888 is a registered UK company so this can certainly be persued under UK regulation (natch I am not a lawyer). I'm not sure if the small-claims court is applicable here? If it is, you can do it all without lawyers and costs.

Regardless, as a business decision from pacific this is terrible. An administration fee based on a percentage of the balance is just a joke. I can understand some kind of timeframe specified in T&C to ensure money isn't left dorment for years and years, but to withdraw 10% every month without a reasonable attempt to try to contact the player beforehand is just terrible.

I totally agree with raptor and Paul B. This is ridiculous.

Im sure you can sue them for this. Although it is described in the T&C that this is their policy, the way they approach it makes it clear that its just a way to "steal" money from unaware players. Such an "automatic procedure" as they claim, should obviously include an alert system that would inform the player of the consequences.

Withdraw the $2k, contact lawyer and inform 888.com of your actions.

Unbelievable fees!!!!!!!!! Totally unjust whether or not it is in their T&C's. If it was like $5 per month you could perhaps forgive it but 10% of your balance per month? no freaking way.

I don`t understand some people who keep such a large sum of money in their account and don`t play at the site.Even if u don`t play u should at least login from time to time and see that everything is ok.Why didn`t u transfer your money to moneybookers or somewhere else if u didn`t play for 1 year in first place?

lol yup their 5/10 nl games were so soft
after a while of playng 10k+ hands a month there they stopped giving me point i could convert to cash
no more 16 dollars a month for me
joke of a site but ive never seen players that bad

This isn't really the point.
I agree that this is outrageous and I will be sending them an email letting them know my thoughts on the matter.

The fee is completely unreasonable. The cost of keeping a dormant account with $100 in is surely the same as keeping a dormant account with $50k in.

I have 1-2k on many poker sites that I havent touched for over a year and my account balance has never been touched. This fee is just rediculous. I agree with what everyone else said about contacting a lawyer, it would be small claims though and if you wanted to pursue this you could actually do some research in a law library and do a good job if your semi intelligent (Which from your OP I would assume is the case).

But the important point is that just because something is in their T&C doesnt make it legal. There are several factors, one of which is bargaining power - which basically means that individuals dont have any right of negotiation with large companies, so the law will discard some of the more onerous terms in order to protect them. Whereas two large companies entering into a contract wouldnt have that same protection because they are expected to negotiate first.

This seems like usury.

I always thought that site was shady.

DONT GIVE UP!
Some info:
888.com, Pacific Poker and Casino-on-Net are operated by Cassava Enterprises (Gibraltar) Ltd., a registered company, incorporated and located in Gibraltar (company registration number 83961).
Both Pacific Poker and Casino-on-Net operate under a license granted by the Government of Gibraltar under the provisions of the Gambling Ordinance for the purposes of operating an Internet Casino. If you would like more information regarding the Government of Gibraltar or the relevant licensing regulations, please visit www.gibraltar.gov.gi.
Pacific Poker and Casino-on-Net have adopted the Code of Conduct of the Interactive Gaming Council (IGC), the US based consumer advocacy group, of which both Pacific Poker and Casino-on-Net are Members.
These are Pacific Poker's Fundamental Values and Principles:

* We believe that everyone should be free to do as they choose, so long as they don't infringe upon the freedom of others.
* We respect the individual. We believe that individuals who are treated with respect respond in kind.
* We insist on complete honesty and integrity in everything we do.
* We do what we say and we say what we do. We always live up to our commitments.
* We believe that your complaints and suggestions bring out the best in us, by allowing us to continually improve.
* We insist on giving our best effort in everything we undertake.
* We strive to be friendly and courteous, as well as fair and compassionate.
* We believe in the "Golden Rule" and shall treat you the way we would like to be treated.
* We take any and all matters related to our Members very seriously and with a sense of urgency and responsibility.
* We believe that gambling is entertainment and it should be fun.

Gibraltar law is totally based on English law.
Two items of current UK legislation:

Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977(updated 2003)
Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999

Its possible these two acts may be part of Gibraltar law.

Basically these two acts protect you from "unfair" terms & conditions in your dealings with any Uk registered company or any company operating within the UK.

It seems to me Pacifics T&C could be considerred an unfair contract term.
You would be well advised to contact a lawyer.

It is unfortunate that Pacfic couldnt send an email stating that in X weeks or days the 10% fee would be activated. Without warning, it is cold to enact this agreement. IMO Legal but cold

Not only that, but OP actually seemed to be genuinely trying to warn others about this issue at the same time as seeking advice.

Maybe this trend will stick?