So, almost everyone is betting 3 big blinds when open-raising in NLHE.
It seems to work well but I never heard any convincing explanation of why it should be the best amount. Do you guys know of one? (I know the argument that you should always bet the same amount to avoid being easily readable, but why 3BB?)

And I am sure some of you bet a different amount in some circumstances (or always?). When you do, what are you trying to achieve and what do you take into account to decide how much to bet?

Thanks!

2xbb prices the bb in with most hands, and 4xbb is investing more money so it's scaaary.

Live games the open raise is normally a lot larger, and personally I'm between 3 and 5 online depending on the table and how much I want to spew.

An intersting view to take on pf raising is keep it smaller if you think you have a post flop edge. That way to you can play a lot more pot control. The most important thing is to not telegraph that you have specific hands (eg raising AA for 2bb but ak for 3bb from the same position).

I start with 4xbb, and then if there is more than 1 limper, i increase it at my discretion.

Though i'm sure one can precisely calculate what sized raise is optimal for given stack sizes and ones raising range, most likely it will lie within the 3-6BB range. So people generally make it aroound 3.5-4.5BB and that becomes the standard which people get used to. Anyone who raises more than standard is often deemed a bit suspicious and usually won't get much action and thus are forced to conform to the standard raise sizes as well.

Raise too little and you don't get enough value out of your good hands, and allow weaker hands to draw out on you. Raise too much and your risk either getting no action unless you are beat as well as folding out weaker hands that you dominate.

My open raises range from 2.5BB to 5BB. Usually 3.5BB or 4BB.
The main factor affecting it are the presence of poor short stacks to my left. In steal situations I always open raise 2.5BB-3BB vs a short stacker to steal their blinds and to cut down on their short stack advantage. Stupid fish who call with anything preflop get my super special 5BB raise.

As for raising limpers,for every normal limper I add 1BB, for every fishy limper I add 1.5BB.

In my opinion 3BB is cut off where players will let go of their trash hands. You don't want A6 calling when you have KK-JJ. But in all reality 3BB is a starting point. If the table is very tight, you may be able to bring this down to 2BB, or if it's loose, you may have to go as high as 5BB.

As for changing it up, you have too. If you 3BB will get the Ax out, it will likely not get JJ out. I like to make large BB bets with my AA and JJ and lower. I'd even show the AA after a larger than normal bet. This way when you raise 99 pre-flop with a large BB, you may get JJ and TT out of the way. If you get called, the cbet may just be too much for JJ to keep going based on you're perceived history. I had players show me QQ after my cb when all I had was a low pocket. If you do get caught raising big with 99, then the table will start calling you more and if you keep that in mind and adjust accordingly, you will take down some big pots.

Keeping the opening bet the same all the time has some value, but it may induce some weak calls every so often... this is a good thing, but you have to really make sure you read the board and the villans actions very closely.

However, changing it up and mixing up you're raises is the way to go...

WTF?

If you don't want A6 calling your KK-JJ raises, what exactly do you want calling your raises? Of course you want A6 calling these raises, as long as in the long run you charge them more than they win from you when an ace flops.

I don't under stand this strategy... is this all part of some plan to avoid paying rake by ending all hands preflop?

So you raise big with 99 preflop and get JJ and TT out of the way, so u take down just the blinds, until you come up on AA or KK who just reraise you or call and trap you. And your big hands don't get much action either because of the huge raises. I can see this working at uNL, but you are wasting your time raising 99 big as well because most people won't even notice you are raising good hands more than weaker ones. If i'm at a table of donkeys I will raise my AA more than my 78s and noone seems to notice or care.

You seem to have the wrong idea about raising preflop (or in general) you don't raise to chase weaker hands out you raise to get value out of these weaker hands when they call. If you REALLY want to chase out all weaker hands just shove all in preflop.

A6 was in the context of rasing 3BB. It was only an example of one of the many weak hands that can call you if you don't raise 3BB pre-flop. Maybe I should rephrase to this... I raise 3BB to chase out the masses that are more than willing to limp in with week hands. KK is an underdog if you get too many callers. You raise 3BB to get most to fold and induce one or two players to call with a weaker hand. If A6 and 45s call me, then so be it... that is what I want. But if I get A6, 45s, 77, JTo and QTs call me, this is not a good situatiaon to be in. I would much prefer raising 3BB and only get QTs and 77 call me.

As for raising 99 vs AA, yes I agree you don't want to get the weak hands to fold and only the monsters to call... I did mention that it all depends on table conditions. You adjust you're betting based on what it takes to get a certain number of callers. Out of those callers, you then have to pay attention who called you and how they react post-flop. My raising paterns seem to confuse you... that's ok, cause it confuses my opponents as well... which is why I 4 table with an average result of 6BB/100 at the NL25.

You want players to make mistakes against you. Betting properly is a science in itself. You have to make it confusing to the good player and just right to get the donk to make a mistake.

Yes I agree, my betting is designed to drive out players, and maybe sometimes i drives out profitable players. This is why it's an in game adjustment where I somtimes have to bring down the price... and you have to know when to slow down or let go when solid players are in the pot.

4xBB + 1 per limper seems to be the standard around here.

Here is a lengthy thread about why.

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...t=1&PHPSESSID=

Just use the Bet Pot button pre-flop, most people are responsive to it and fold in turn. I don't alter the betting sizes unless I'm in the SB, where I like to charge them extra for position.

In tournaments, the standard is usually 3+1, however, players routinely drop this to open raising 2.5X or 2x when the blinds get huge (ie: final tables).

In online cash games, the standard is 4+1, however some players vary this according to position (raising less in EP and more LP).

In live games players often raise much more because the tables are so loose you'll still get callers at 6+1 (this can also apply to online micro tables though a lot of players still do 4+1).

The reason for the difference between cash and tournament is because in tournaments there's a balancing act between getting paid and preserving your stack in the event you have to fold. In cash games, preserving your stack is not an issue (you can always reload) so you generally want to raise as much as will get called (particularly if you have position).

Don't do this.

3 -4 BB is a standard pre-flop raise into an unopened pot. It puts pressure on the rest of the table to fold trash hands. Opening a pot with 3.5 BB (pot sized) forces the BB to put 2.5 BB into a 5 BB pot (2:1 odds). That doesn't mean it's the right amount.

Pre-flop raises should be table specific. You have to watch your table and see what effect raises are having. I've played in live 1/2 NL games where anything less than 7-9 BB will get called by half the table. I've also played in games where a min raise will win the blinds. Just watch the table and bet the range that has the effect you want.

Pre-flop raises should also be player specific. Once a given player has limped, do they tend to call most pre-flop raises? Does the BB defend their blind aggressively? It's something you should watch for. There are a lot of loose players that can't stand the idea of folding once they limp. When you have a good hand against a player like this, raise more than usual to isolate them. They will be putting too much money in the pot when you are the favorite, so abuse this tendency.

One thing you should never do is vary your raises based on your hand. Vary by situation, but not by the strength of your hand. If you want to vary your raises for deception, make sure it's based on some independent RND so you are truly random. At weak games, it's not worth the effort because most players aren't watching what you are doing, but at games with better players, it becomes a useful tool.

The standard opening bet pre-flop is actually 3 1/2bb, not 3bb

In NL poker the rule of thumb is to bet or raise the size of the pot. This is so that you offer your opponent the worst possible odds to call your bet, yet not risk more than you stand to earn.

A 3 1/2bb PFR is simply a call of 1bb, bringing the pot 2 1/2bb, and then a pot-size raise of 2 1/2bb.

Additionally, if you find that a PFR of 3 1/2bb is not sufficient to thin the field and gets too many callers (as is usually the case at small stakes on-line games) then larger PRFs are necessary.

This does not change the fundamental soundness of making a pot-size raise as a PFR, it's just a simple adjustment to game conditions.

Incidentally, this is the reason Sklansky said in his post years ago that on-line cash game players are playing as if there were an ante when in fact there is none - That they are raising too high pre-flop, and are calling pre-flop over-raises with weak & marginal hands.

Do deep stacks call for higher raises? How much would the raise be when the average stack was, say, 200BB?

Pre-flop is the weakest part of my game straight up. So I have a question not a statement. I read some where, Phil Gordon I think, That you should raise based on position and not cards. 2.5xbb for early then it increase until 4xbb for the button. He says it makes it harder to be put on a hand and the quality of hands you are playing from each position makes this the best way to raise preflop. Reading this thread I do not get the feel that this is what anyone else does. Does anyone think this might be a good way to go?

I also think you guys need to mention what limits you are talking about when posting what you raises you make preflop because that matters a lot. I don't mind letting in the weakest players at 10nl because I have an edge post flop. However I'd never do this in a card club. So If you could edit your post and declare which limit you are playing that would be much appreciated by me.

Thanks

It's probably just fine to vary the size of your raises based on position like that, but the difference in effect is probably minuscule, especially at online microstakes and for novice to mediocre players. Also, 100BB deep a 2.5BB raise sounds just too low to me, it gives correct odds to so many weaker hands that would often be callign with much worse odds, while failing to build a big pot against dominated hands. I think Phil Gordon has mostly tournaments in mind in his book? In tournaments, you are so often so shortstacked that this indeed can be much more relevant.

Hi All,


The suggestions for pfr sizes depending on position seems to be the opposite of what I heard Neil Channing talking about the other day when asked about bet sizing... he actually talked about betting more in ep to avoid playing post-flop out of position with several callers..?

This made sense to me, though minimising the amount you put in the pot with several players yet to act also makes sense...

thoughts??

Its just standard. In tournaments it can sometimes be only 2bb or 4bb. Mix it up from time to time though. It really confuses people when you don't do the standard bet or what they think is standard. Do 2bb and then do 5 or 6bb and you really have people wondering what you have

Not a great answer. There's some good maths reasoning behind it.

Basically you want to raise enough to narrow your opponents' range (ie, fold out random trash which can be really difficult to play against post-flop), but not so much that you get rid of every hand except ones that beat you.

Actually different raise sizes for different strength hands would be more correct mathematically, but since that would tell people how strong your hand is, it's not a good idea in practice - which is why people tend to use a standard raise (or one based on other things than hand strength, such as position or effective stacks).

A min-raise of 2bb encourages the big blind to call with a very wide range (not as wide as limping, ofc, but still pretty wide). And a raise of >5bb puts a lot of pressure on your hand to succeed. So 2-5bb is good.

Then it makes sense to make the smallest raise you can to get the job done. For 100bb effective stack cash games, 3bb is effective but not too expensive. People are not going to change their behaviour much if you put in 4bb instead, so why waste the extra chips? The less you put in each time, the more often you can do it for the same cost.

A lot of people raise a lower amount on the button for that reason. Button raises get less respect and are 3bet more often, so it makes sense to make them cheap. Also, as Daniel Negreanu says: you don't mind if the blinds call out of position, right?

3bb turns out to be a nice standard raise size because of the maths, and that's why the thinking players do it, why books recommend it, and why it has become standard. Just because most people just do it because everyone else does, or because they read it somewhere, doesn't make that the reason for it.