Pokerstars $3.40 turbo STTs on the weekends. Crazy players everywhere.

How do you win a turbo STT where:
1) it's hard to regulate the # of players that will be in the hand by your PF betting
2) cbetting makes everyone fold like 10% of the time because there are 4 people in every hand
3) players will call huge PF bets with hands like J7s and you can't get any reads on them because they make the wrong moves
4) players will do stupid things like slowplay AJ on a Jack-high flop til the turn
5) etc

***

Last night I had KK in first position. The blinds were at 15/30. In this table, if I raise to 120 I will get 4-5 callers. So I bet much bigger, trying to isolate 1 or 2 players. I bet 300. I get 3 callers! No reraise, nothing. Just 3 crazy players that I have no reads on.

Flop is AJT rainbow and I have nothing to do but check. One of them has at least a weak Ace.

MP bets the pot size. Cutoff (fishy deep stack) goes all-in. Button (fishy short stack) calls all-in. I fold. MP calls all-in.

Here were their hands:

MP: A7o
CO: QQ
Btn: 89o

***

How can you win tables like this? In another round of tables I played ultratight, waiting for premium hands, folding AQs to any major action, even if I probably had everyone beat... Then I'd get blinded down to 8-10BB before the bubble, and have to push with hands like TT... which doesn't work well when you have three callers with KJs, 44, and A9o.

I tried a different strategy in another round of STTs. I took risks early on, like calling with AKs after 3 players went all-in, in the hopes of getting lucky. I became deepstack in 2 tables this way, and kept up the aggression (very carefully), trying my best to judge calling ranges and willing to go all-in with KTs if I thought I had them beat. I didn't win or lose this round of tables. 0% ROI. I did another round of tables. Same result.

How do you win these crazy STTs? I'm going round and round. I can't see a way out. Hopefully you can.

OMG these guys play so bad you can't beat them!

Move up to where they respect your raises obviously.

Just shove all in every hand. That way your opponents can't make the wrong moves.

These are tables that should make you drool.Oh yeah,i agree,with SABR,move up to where they respect your raises.

Just continue playing the way you know you should. In the long run these guys/donks just donate. When we play disciplined/patient/cautious aggressive poker we will prevail and their bank and roi will be in the toilet. Sure they win big pots, often sucking out with terrible play but many times it works to our benefit. They often eliminate really good players, our toughest competition, and they have a big stack that you know they will ultimately give away. I call them CD's...Chip Distributors. They win hands but not tourneys!

Good luck against the CD's.

I grind away at these levels as well and have scars to show it from slamming my face into the table after getting knocked out by a terrible call. What you should do is tighten up. It's a pain, but probe bets, semi-bluffs and other standard plays will never work. There are several posts that discuss how to play vs maniacs worth searching for.

My suggestion is to call/fold til the blinds get higher. It's a pain to toss away good staring hands early but in the long run it's worth it. You should still play AA and KK early and things like you described will happen, but waiting is probably the best strategy.

You win against them by not sucking.

Wait, that's not right.

YOU dont win against them by not sucking.

But someone who doesnt suck would.

LOL, i love that line

Wait until the blinds get high. Then shove.

Thanks to Albino and rpc for useful answers.

And thanks to you for your contribution. I can see you are confident; you must be a great player. And you are charismatic to boot.

So, enlighten me. I'm sure there are a couple others in this thread curious like me... How you would win consistently? Re-read the original post and then grace us with your divine word. Everyone is waiting patiently.

Thanks to Albino and rpc for useful answers.

And thanks to you for your contribution. I can see you are confident; you must be a great player. And you are charismatic to boot.

So, enlighten me. I'm sure there are others in this thread just as curious... How you would win consistently? Re-read the original post and then grace us with your divine word. Everyone is waiting patiently.

PS:

I moved up to $5.50 STTs, non turbos, to build my BR back up. I lost 20 buyins against those crazies..

Once my BR is high enough I will figure out a way to beat the $3.40 turbos on the the weekends...

Bet more frequently and larger for value. Make few c-bets and semi/bluffs.

OK, I'll bite:

Bet a hell of a lot when you think you have the best hand. They'll call. (But on the river, bet somewhat less, often around half pot, to get called by bottom pair.

Get in cheaply with hands that have draws to great hands: Axs and pairs. If you hit a set, bet big. If you hit the nut flush, bet big. With a draw to the nut flush (or a nut straight with a safe board), bet the flop against multiple opponents; check/call against one. Do not repeat on the turn. When you hit your flush, bet big.

Play connectors for a single bet in late position. Do not draw to a small flush unless it's cheap. Do not draw to a straight unless it's the high end. Always be willing to get away fro a small flush when the fourth card of the suit comes.

Don't draw to a hand that could easily be second best.

If you think you're beaten, even by trash, fold.

Never bluff. Never c-bet into multiple opponents unless you hit your hand.

Not optimal, but it should be enough to crush that game.

Note that in the hand you gave in the OP, you are thrilled that they called the PF raise. You are unthrilled that an ace came. Get 'em next hand.

OP,the reason why you arent getting the responces your looking for is that there is no problem here.Most see getting three callers on a huge overbet preflop when you have KK as a blessing.You used an example where maybe Ace falls and a donk that called A-rag has you beat,that happens.But what about the other times when the flop comes clean,you jam and these idiots double you up with top pair Q,J,whatever,or you take down a now rather large size pot on the flop.To get right to the point,these players are dead money.This is not a problem,just play your game be aggressive and value bet them to death.Someone suggested to tighten up,why??? Because these players are so bad and call with such a horrible range OOP even,this allows you to play even a larger range of hands profitably against them in position.There is a reason we joke here and say "move up to where they respect your raises".Its because we all had this feeling at one point or another when we started playing.The longer we play though,we start to slowly lose that results orientated thinking that causes us to remember the bad beats more than the times we profit.We then realize that these are the exact situations that allow us to make money.Like i said in my first reply,these are tables that should make you drool because they are so +EV.

Guys, this isn't a whining thread. I brought up a legitimate concern... try to see what I'm saying.

An extreme (only slightly) example:

There are 4 people in a pot, each with 2 cards. There is no flop, turn, river structure; instead, the dealer puts 5 cards on the table. How often does AKo win? I'm no statistics person but I have a good feeling for balance and would assume AKo doesn't win more than 50% of the time.

Why 5 cards instead of 3? These players would go to the river almost every time.

Normally you see a player this clueless at every other FR table. But at the Stars $3.40 turbo STTs, friday night, there were 5 of them per table. In cash games this would be a blessing, and you guys would be right. But at STTs, where the winning edge is gained by Semibluffing, Cbetting, Stealing, and playing like a rock ... ABC poker will not win against 5 clueless, call-happy LAGs.

Anyway, as I said I would, I figured out how to consistently beat these guys... that's coming in the next post.

This was my biggest mistake; overvaluing hands in an attempt to regulate # of players in a pot. Betting 300 was a bad move because it made me too invested against too many players, even for premium hand like KK. With KK from early position, I had better choices:

1) Bet 90-120. Push all-in to any reraise. But if I make it to the flop with only 90 invested, I can still fold easily.
2) (preferred) Go all-in preflop. I'll get a caller more often than not.

***

The second change I made was to play preflop more. My goal was to isolate 1-2 players, take them all-in when I had the better hand. In fact, I rarely played postflop -- only when limping from late position with small PP and hitting a set. 90% of my play was preflop, and 90% of the time I was the favorite against 1-2 callers.

I'd hit a couple bad beats which takes out about 2 / 8 tables. But usually it doubles me up... from then on, ABC poker will usually cash.

***

The third change I made was regarding when to push. Normally I push at 10BB. But in these crazy turbos I tightened... and pushed at 5BB-7BB. Obviously my goal at this point is not to win 1st, but to cash. Why this change? I can't explain it, I can only feel it.

***

Overall, the change is this:

If I'm going to play strong, I should play really strong.
If I'm going to play tight, I should play really tight.
And play certain strong hands moderately so it doesn't hurt me if I get outflopped.

In a round of 8 tables, I'll lose 2-3 to bad beats. I'll become a chipleader in 2-3. And I'll sneak into the cash in 1-2, and bubble in 1-2.

Overall I profit a nice amount.

Playing vs. these idiots is really profitable long term but makes for high variance in the short term. Nut peddle is the simple answer. It's the same at 10nl and such. If you nut peddle and bet the turd out of your big hands you will crush over the long term but if u run bad you'll be in a world of hurt.

It doesn't need to. If all those players are going to the river, and you have 4 opponents, you only need to win 20% of the time to break even on the hand. Do you see why? Against 4 random hands, AKo wins 32%.

If each opponent puts in $X, then
32% of the time, you win 4*X
68% of the time, you lose X
4X*.32 - X*.68 = 1.28X - .68X = .6X

AKo is really not a great multi-way hand. AKs is much better, provided *you* aren't playing blind to the river. A hand like KK WILL win 50% of the time, against 4 random hands. That's a monster, against players who will play every hand make every effort to get it all in early. Your expected profit would be
.5*4X - .5X = 1.5X
that is, more than a double up on average (obviously, half the time, you QUINTUPLE UP and half the time you're busto)

I mainly play cash games.

I tried the SNG thing and didn't do poorly, but got tired of the luckfest when getting down to 4 or 5 players. I found cash game to be much more profitable where you can push any edge.

My favorite was the 3 table SNG. Gets down to about 12 players and the blinds are so high that everyone is short. Let the luckfest begin!

I may venture back to tourneys at some point to see if I can master it.

wait for high cards
openraise 10BB
if hit flop, CBET 20BB
if miss flop check down (go all in if he leads turn)

i think this will win until someone ajusts

I getcha on the math, Rusty, thanks for the corrections. I do think you're looking at it from a cash perspective, instead of turbo.



Turbos are more of a crapshoot for obvious reasons. You can still win them consistently against the average dead $$ -- your edges being blind stealing, cbetting, etc. Generally speaking, ABC poker wins these STTs from Sunday thru Thursday.


But on Fri and Sat, against so many bad players, "Random" is a more formidable opponent. 2-3 insane players/table is easily winnable. But at 4-6 insane players/table, you cross a threshold ... after which, playing ABC poker hurts you. Which is why the following changes -- I explained in previous posts -- work:

Playing strong (but not premium) hands slightly weaker than ABC poker dictates during preflop.
Ie raising AQo to 2.5x instead of 3x/4x/5x. This minimizes the damage Random does to you -- which is a higher priority than maximizing profit because STTs reward overcautious play.

Mostly preflop play
Simplifies the big mess of variables that is the flop/turn/river structure... into simple statistics. Your goal is to get someone all-in when you're the favorite. If you can do this, it doesn't matter if you're playing against a pro or a fish -- best hand wins longterm.

***

So here is the summary of points:

1) Main priority is to get someone all-in PF when you're the favorite.
2) If you must see a flop with a strong hand, bet it weaker than ABC poker says.
3) If one table deals you no premium hands, do not just play tight; play ultra tight. (Push at 5-7BB, not 10BB+)

And now I am adding a fourth point to the strategy:
4) Start "playing" poker just before the bubble. Blind stealing, cbetting, semibluffing, 3betting bluffs, etc. By this point, the clueless players are gone except one, who's a massive chipleader. And he can be outplayed easily when it's shorthanded.





I know I said some really obvious things in this post but the main points are not so obvious...

I understand, why you would want to beat these kind of games, to grind out your bankroll, but if you are trying to become a better player this is not the way to go.
These turbos are a donkfest. You learn nothing about hand reading, pot sizing, etc ... the list goes on.
All these skills are needed, to move to a decent game level. Unless your goal is just to earn some extra bucks, playing these stupid games, you should try to study the game and move to a higher level - at least $5.50.
While there is still enough fish to make these very profitable, some poker can be learned. Then as soon as possible make the step to $11. (PokerStars)
These are also fairly easy to beat ( I started a year ago playing Play Money Games and now am profitable at these), while you gain experience in Poker instead of wasting your time and brain at the turbos.
Read some books in that time, if you don't think you are ready to move up and you will be. You'll become a better player and earn more in the long run, too.
Playing too many of these turbos might even hurt your game as you will draw the wrong conclusions once you start to play real Poker.
It's like playing chess against a 5 year old. You will always win, but barely get better.

My 2plus2 cents.
Renni

I find both of these games ridiculously easy on PokerStars.
Sure, I will lose several in a row but in the 3.25 45 person turbo I have played probably 16 in the last 4 days cashed in 8, top 3 in 4 and won 2. Just be patient and know they will donate when they get big stacks.

It's just a reality that sometimes you are going to have fold hands like KK, QQ, and sometimes even AA after a multi way flop.


PATIENCE

Renni:
You're absolutely right. It's almost harmful to play micros. I would rather play low stakes instead of micro -- I know I would come out on top -- but my bank cut me off after my initial small deposit to Stars. So now I'm left grinding... I've read 12 poker books, played for maybe 9 months. Not a lot, but I can spot a 5-year-old move from a mile away (this happens at every street of every pot in the games I play). I'm not learning bad habits from these guys.

Sking:
If we played, you'd think I was a good player who belonged at least in low stakes. But for a few hours every week, the $3.40 turbos get clueless and wild, and are a challenge to beat. But I figured out one way! Low stakes here I come...