I'm still having a little trouble with bloating/spewing so here we go with the hand.

Villian is very LAGgy 48/28/1.8

The alleged bloat is on the turn...

Absolute Poker $2.00/$4.00 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with A A
UTG calls, MP calls, 2 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, MP calls, SB calls

Flop: (5 BB) 5 8 7 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, SB calls

Turn: (6.5 BB) 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP raises, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP calls

River: (12.5 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets, MP calls



Yes, his hand range is wide and there are certainly better hands out there; but based on stats I kept pushing.

i am so much closer to folding than 3-betting. based on stats the guy is probably a decent player.

yea no way i am 3 balling this turn, way too much in that range that has us way behind

its closer to a fold than a 3 bet as miles said, i suck it up and just call down here

we still beat TT on the river

based on the guys river play, he either has 66 and we lose, or we just conterfeited his two pair

turn play is bad.

Your hand is still good enough to call down, but wtf.

Maybe he read Heisenb3rg's magazine article about reraising LAGs on scare cards?

probably not

Huh???? When does 48/28/1.8 become a decent player?

I don't really agree with miles on that one either. All the same though, he's probably better then you think he is.

all im saying is the guy likely has a clue.

if you say he doesnt have a clue i dont know what to say. who knows whether these stats are mostly 4-handed or 6-handed? all im saying is that his vpip divided by his pfr is the right value and his vpip is not outrageous, especially without the number of hands we've seen.

sooooo

to make some 3-bet that is completely insane, i think we'd need more than some stats that are slightly outside of the normal range (if not actually in the normal range)

I'm not saying that he doesn't have a clue. All that I am saying is that he is very LAGgy and for that his range is wide and especially his turn raising range is wider than most.

By the way, who is Heisenb3rg? lol.

I'm going to go ahead and post results as I'm sure the consensus is going to echo the above sentiments.

By the way, and this is for better or worse (probably more to the worse), one motto that I go by is to never fear the monster. Of course, if it becomes insanely obvious, then that is different. In this hand, I didn't fear the monster and I didn't think the raise on the turn made a lot of sense and went with that thought.

Absolute Poker $2.00/$4.00 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with A A
UTG calls, MP calls, 2 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, MP calls, SB calls

Flop: (5 BB) 5 8 7 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, SB calls

Turn: (6.5 BB) 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP raises, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP calls

River: (12.5 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets, MP calls

One more thing... more general posting rules.. In the above hand, what makes for better discussion. The full line like I posted above or stopping at the villain raise on the turn to get opinions?

3-betting turn seems to much and folding is not an option so that leaves calling as the most balanced play with the intention of calling down

Stop at the decision. If you show what happened after people will be results oriented.

Heisenb3rg is a veteran poster here who has had some articles published in the 2+2 magazine lately. See http://twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue37/cairns0108.php. When I said that you were applying this theory I was only half joking. This isn't a terrible spot to reraise when a LAG represents a scare card. The LAG knows you probably don't have the 8 and it's online so he's going to call down. Everybody's standard response is to call down here, but maybe 3-betting isn't as bad as it has been made out to be here.

Here's a recent example where I bluff/value 3-bet:

I raised A5s in the CO. A LAGy fishy player calls in the BB. The flop is 986r. I bet, he calls. The turn is another 9. I bet, he check raises, I 3-bet.

Basically, I know he doesn't have the 9, and he knows I don't have the 9 so he will call all draws and maybe call down even K high here. He might also fold a 6, although that's probably optimistic. Also, at this point the pot is so big that I don't mind him folding a 6 outer.

He probably knows based on your preflop action that you do not have a straight--this makes his raise suspect, but I still think he's got it often enough to just call down his turn raise. I could see 3-betting this turn with a history, but wouldn't do it without one. Since you did 3-bet and he just called the river is an easy bet.

willwonka, just some advice. this isn't a post saying you suck, or anything like that, just my experience on players and PAHud


When I see this player, I think he is an aggressive fish, or a really, really good player.

If you think a 48/28/2 can't be good, ask the AP regulars about SpiderUno.

I have about 5K hands on him, and he's running at 47/30/2.something

I don't play with him that often, but I get the impression that he knows what I have at all times. I'm sure that's not the hardest thing to do in the world.

All I'm saying is, just because his stats look weird, doesn't mean he sucks, in fact, he might be really good.


Also, this guy could suck alot

The turn 3bet is bad, because guys like this might cap the turn with T7, and you have to fold the winner in a huge ass pot.

Noted Hip. Like I said before, I didn't say he didn't have a clue. As it turns out the turn raise WAS a good move he had plenty of outs and was only a 55/45 dog.

Also, I don't take any of these posts personally. If I did, I wouldn't be posting.

I'm just trying to extract total value from my hands. If I make a bad move I want to know about it.

You obviously see some crazy stuff down here in 1/2 and 2/4 land.

And finally, I would never raise with the expectation of folding as I've been told on this here board. ;-)

By 3-betting that turn, you're trying to squeeze one more big bet out of him with the very present risk of getting 4-bet and having to fold. Not worth it. Plus, if he *is* semibluffing, you can often get him to take a stab at the river with air if he whiffs.

Go into calldown mode pending a relatively safe river.

Just because you happened to be right in this one instance does not mean your 3-bet on the turn was not spew against the range of hands that would check-raise the turn.

OK.. I'll bite... What range would check raise? I didn't think a 6 was likely based on earlier betting..

I'm not saying anything.. That is why I posted.. I definitely try not to be results oriented. I'm here to learn... ;-)

i don't know why ppl are all up in your junk. a 3 bet isnt terrible spew here, against some villains its my standard line. I think you are getting raised here with a pair + OESD or a pair + flush draw a large portion of the time from folks planning on checking behind the river UI.

(EDIT: ha, was right)

And OP wasn't check raised on the turn, he was raised by someone in position likely trying to force SB out of the hand. A c/r here /would/ be spewy to 3bet for sure.

(that being said, i think there is more value in trying to induce another stab at the river from a worse hand than with the 3bet. I don't think you are crushed by villain's range by any means, but I think a decent villain is folding to the 3 bet with hands he might be likely to bet a safe river on.)

Also regarding the stats, assuming that there aren't a ton of 3 and 4 handed games in there, I think you can safely say that villain is a fish, not some supersmart LAG like you'll find at a bunch of the AP 10/20+ tables.